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Jim Garten
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin & Razor Guru
Joined: February 02 2004
Location: South England
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Points: 14693
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Posted: March 03 2008 at 12:38 |
Reading this thread I've been surprised that nobody's mentioned the fact that DT have in my humble opinion, always worn their influences on their sleeves - be it dropping into Metallica or Floyd riffs mid song (not to mention Led Zep & even Lynryd Skynrd) on the double live "once in a livetime", or devoting whole segments of live sets to covering albums by bands they admit to be major influences (Metallica's "Black" album, Floyd's "Dark Side" and Iron Maiden's "Number Of The Beast" to name but three). Had they denied their influences & antecedents, that'd be a different matter, but DT have never denied their influences - what I cannot understand is why some people consider that highlighting influences is having a go at the band. I'm not the biggest fan of DT (mind you, I've seen them twice & do have 7 albums... ), but neither am I a detractor from them; they are a hugely talented band. But they have been influenced by others.
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Jon Lord 1941 - 2012
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el böthy
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 27 2005
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 6336
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Posted: March 03 2008 at 13:16 |
Yuhuuuuuuu Im seeing them tonight! Its gonna be so awesome (hopefully)
ah, and yes, the whole Octavarium album is pretty much a rip-off... the last album is way better
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"You want me to play what, Robert?"
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: March 03 2008 at 15:28 |
el böthy wrote:
Yuhuuuuuuu Im seeing them tonight! Its gonna be so awesome (hopefully)
ah, and yes, the whole Octavarium album is pretty much a rip-off... the last album is way better
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I'll see them in may! And I paid like 2937239 dollars to actually meet them!
I agree that he album were the influences were the clearest was octavarium....And, as Jim said, they wear them on the sleeve. LIKE EVERYBODY does.... nobody complaints about other bands, though...
Go listen to Marillion and tell me they weren't influenced by some band I shall not mention...(just an example).
Music is the art of artistic theft.
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darkshade
Collaborator
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Joined: November 19 2005
Location: New Jersey
Status: Offline
Points: 10964
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Posted: March 03 2008 at 15:29 |
idk why covering songs or albums by a band is bad. Phish did that every halloween for a time, but no one flacks them.
however i am in agreement with how much DT wear their influences on their sleeves. nothing wrong with that, but why are they soooo proud of it? isnt the ultimate goal of being in a prog band (especially one like DT) to be original and unique? (they were once)
idk how much more i can add to this discussion since most things have been brought up.
i will say this. i was very disappointed with Systematic Chaos. I thought they were gonna drop most of the thrash metal thing and go more of the prog rock route ala Octavarium the song. instead they cranked up the metal (cmon you guys are in your 40's and 50's, not that there's anything wrong with playing metal in that age, but all the bands that do are washed up (Iron Maiden, Overkill, Testament, Metallica, Megadeth, Anthrax, Judas Priest, Black Sabbath, etc....))
DT need a reality check. if they still want to be heavy and fast, there's no problem with that. but there's no need to bring in thrash metal riffs every other song to still appeal to fans (cmon guys, thrash metal died in the early 90's, when you guys were up-and-coming, and you weren't playing thrash metal riffs then, lol)
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The T
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 16 2006
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Posted: March 03 2008 at 15:36 |
darkshade wrote:
idk why covering songs or albums by a band is bad. Phish did that every halloween for a time, but no one flacks them.
however i am in agreement with how much DT wear their influences on their sleeves. nothing wrong with that, but why are they soooo proud of it? isnt the ultimate goal of being in a prog band (especially one like DT) to be original and unique? (they were once)
idk how much more i can add to this discussion since most things have been brought up.
i will say this. i was very disappointed with Systematic Chaos. I thought they were gonna drop most of the thrash metal thing and go more of the prog rock route ala Octavarium the song. instead they cranked up the metal (cmon you guys are in your 40's and 50's, not that there's anything wrong with playing metal in that age, but all the bands that do are washed up (Iron Maiden, Overkill, Testament, Metallica, Megadeth, Anthrax, Judas Priest, Black Sabbath, etc....))
DT need a reality check. if they still want to be heavy and fast, there's no problem with that. but there's no need to bring in thrash metal riffs every other song to still appeal to fans (cmon guys, thrash metal died in the early 90's, when you guys were up-and-coming, and you weren't playing thrash metal riffs then, lol)
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Some people will say I'm a fanboy for how much I post in this formerly derogatory thread... well, I kind of like DT...
I don't see any problem with th thrash metal elements. Man, that's what they like and what most fans like! Why should they appeal to the whole universe if they're not happy? Imagine if DT suddenly made an album more "proggy"... fans would cry sellout (not me), metal-edge fans would be resented, and the hardcore-prog community would say "oh now they copying X, Y, Z" or "now they're being fake"....
Popularity is a curse I guess....
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explodingjosh
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 10 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 507
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Posted: March 04 2008 at 00:32 |
I think that "quoting" and "covering" are completely legal, creativitly wise. In Dream Theater's case, I don't think they even need to explicitly reference a band when they quote them. Like in the intro to Octavarium, its so blatant and obvious what they are quoting (if you know Shine On), a reference in the liner notes would be a "no sh1t" statement for most of their listeners.
I think the problem is when the players sound way too close for comfort to another band. Its disappointing when you're craving new ideas. But I think these moments depend on the listener. I personally was pissed when I heard how James was singing (like R. Waters) in SFaM. I tried to not let it ruin the album for me.
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el böthy
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 27 2005
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 6336
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Posted: March 04 2008 at 12:54 |
The T wrote:
el böthy wrote:
Yuhuuuuuuu Im seeing them tonight! Its gonna be so awesome (hopefully)
ah, and yes, the whole Octavarium album is pretty much a rip-off... the last album is way better
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I'll see them in may! And I paid like 2937239 dollars to actually meet them!
I agree that he album were the influences were the clearest was octavarium....And, as Jim said, they wear them on the sleeve. LIKE EVERYBODY does.... nobody complaints about other bands, though...
Go listen to Marillion and tell me they weren't influenced by some band I shall not mention...(just an example).
Music is the art of artistic theft.
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This was the first and will probably be the last time I see Dream Theater live. Although the show in itsfelf was not bad, and Labrie actually sung pretty good, I got very bored in the middle. It´s not like I ask anything from them other than what they delivered, but I felt I got the same excitment watching them live than watching them on a DVD. There where some songs that stood out, like Dark eternal night, Forsaken (along with Prophets of war, which they didnt play unfortunatly, the best track of SC... for me at least) and Take the time, and had they ended the show with this last two, I would probably be a bit more pleased with the show, but they came back (obviously) and did the whole In the presence of enemies epic... the first part is good, nothing spectacular but good... but the second part is, hands down some of the worst music DT has ever done... at least, again, for me. Again, the show in itself wasn´t bad at all, but I don´t know... there is only this much Petrucci soloing I can take. I don´t know, maybe Im not as big of a fan of DT as I thought I was... but is it too much to ask for them to shake things up live? Like the Baldies always say, for listening the same note for note solo I can listen to them at home...
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"You want me to play what, Robert?"
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: March 04 2008 at 15:02 |
explodingjosh wrote:
I think that "quoting" and "covering" are completely legal, creativitly wise. In Dream Theater's case, I don't think they even need to explicitly reference a band when they quote them. Like in the intro to Octavarium, its so blatant and obvious what they are quoting (if you know Shine On), a reference in the liner notes would be a "no sh1t" statement for most of their listeners.
I think the problem is when the players sound way too close for comfort to another band. Its disappointing when you're craving new ideas. But I think these moments depend on the listener. I personally was pissed when I heard how James was singing (like R. Waters) in SFaM. I tried to not let it ruin the album for me.
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Thank you! Someone else who can hear the Waters influence in LaBrie's SfaM work!
Having said that, I think SfaM (along with Octavarium, Awake and Images and Words) is one of the best albums DT ever did. The influences don't really bother me, but I think it's absurd when people defend them on the grounds that "all music is ripping off someone". Well, obviousely, but no other band really shows their ifnluences so obviousely; only DT.
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Statutory-Mike
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 15 2008
Location: Long Island
Status: Offline
Points: 3737
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Posted: March 04 2008 at 15:04 |
The T wrote:
el böthy wrote:
Yuhuuuuuuu Im seeing them tonight! Its gonna be so awesome (hopefully)
ah, and yes, the whole Octavarium album is pretty much a rip-off... the last album is way better
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I'll see them in may! And I paid like 2937239 dollars to actually meet them!
I agree that he album were the influences were the clearest was octavarium....And, as Jim said, they wear them on the sleeve. LIKE EVERYBODY does.... nobody complaints about other bands, though...
Go listen to Marillion and tell me they weren't influenced by some band I shall not mention...(just an example).
Music is the art of artistic theft.
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Oh you lucky b*****d! You got the meet and greet package!
I cheaped out and only got tickets for one night at Terminal 5 ...should be an AMAZING show though, it'll be my second time seeing them..and the second time of this tour .
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Statutory-Mike
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 15 2008
Location: Long Island
Status: Offline
Points: 3737
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Posted: March 04 2008 at 15:06 |
Jim Garten wrote:
But they have been influenced by others. |
But then again who hasn't been influenced by others?
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MajesterX
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 30 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 513
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Posted: March 04 2008 at 15:47 |
MisterProg2112 wrote:
Jim Garten wrote:
But they have been influenced by others. |
But then again who hasn't been influenced by others? |
No one. You can't get something from nothing. But that is not the point of this discussion. My opinion is that it is essential to learn from the past and have many "influences", but I have been drawn away from Dream Theater because I believe they do not internalize their influences and mix them tell enough to create something brilliant. Mr.Garten- Yes, Dream Theater have always said they wear their influences on their sleeves. Yet this is still basis for my opinion that while influences are healthy, not fully developing them into one's music and integrating it carefully and subliminally makes it seem like one is "copying" another person. I'll give an example- The song Repentance off of their latest album. Listening to the chord progression, I immediately noticed that it used similar half-step movements in a minor key and voice leading as is almost the signature sound of Opeth. Right after the first few lines of the lyrics about 2 minutes into the song there is a small unison interlude with the guitar and bass utilizing the same type of chromaticism seen, again, in Opeth. The section with the apologizing voices is very, very similar to the track Vocari Dei on Pain of Salvation's Be album, both being many taped progressing voices, both with messages of apology. Mike Portnoy, who wrote the song Repentance even left a message on the machine that POS had set up for the messages in their song, making it obvious there he came up with the idea of the voices in DT's song. I could give tens of examples of this sort of thing, especially in their recent work. Their influences are Dream Theater's blessing and flaw. The strong (and somewhat obvious) influences are a blessing as they attract fans of their influences to the band and are able to create very, very diverse music. They are also a curse, as I have pointed out, as people may be disappointed in the seeming lack of individual "Dream Theater sound" in their music as well as originality. Take whichever side you want, it doesn't matter, but I've been on both.
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StyLaZyn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079
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Posted: March 04 2008 at 16:30 |
p0mt3 wrote:
explodingjosh wrote:
I think that "quoting" and "covering" are completely legal, creativitly wise. In Dream Theater's case, I don't think they even need to explicitly reference a band when they quote them. Like in the intro to Octavarium, its so blatant and obvious what they are quoting (if you know Shine On), a reference in the liner notes would be a "no sh1t" statement for most of their listeners.
I think the problem is when the players sound way too close for comfort to another band. Its disappointing when you're craving new ideas. But I think these moments depend on the listener. I personally was pissed when I heard how James was singing (like R. Waters) in SFaM. I tried to not let it ruin the album for me.
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Thank you! Someone else who can hear the Waters influence in LaBrie's SfaM work!
Having said that, I think SfaM (along with Octavarium, Awake and Images and Words) is one of the best albums DT ever did. The influences don't really bother me, but I think it's absurd when people defend them on the grounds that "all music is ripping off someone". Well, obviousely, but no other band really shows their ifnluences so obviousely; only DT. |
Yep...there is a blatant ripoff of Waters from the Wall. But that's what you get when you lack creativity. Unless of course he intended to do so, in which case he better have throw Waters a bone in the liner notes.
For the record, I much prefer Octavarium, rip offs and all, over Systematic Chaos. I put in SC the other day and couldn't take it anymore during track 3. You know, I keep trying, hoping, but it never pans out. I did end up buying it for collection purposes, but there is a reason SC was collecting dust.
Bring back KMoore!!!!! Bring back the DT of old!
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Petrovsk Mizinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: December 24 2007
Location: Ukraine
Status: Offline
Points: 25210
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Posted: March 05 2008 at 01:30 |
StyLaZyn wrote:
p0mt3 wrote:
explodingjosh wrote:
I think that "quoting" and "covering" are completely legal, creativitly wise. In Dream Theater's case, I don't think they even need to explicitly reference a band when they quote them. Like in the intro to Octavarium, its so blatant and obvious what they are quoting (if you know Shine On), a reference in the liner notes would be a "no sh1t" statement for most of their listeners.
I think the problem is when the players sound way too close for comfort to another band. Its disappointing when you're craving new ideas. But I think these moments depend on the listener. I personally was pissed when I heard how James was singing (like R. Waters) in SFaM. I tried to not let it ruin the album for me.
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Thank you! Someone else who can hear the Waters influence in LaBrie's SfaM work!
Having said that, I think SfaM (along with Octavarium, Awake and Images and Words) is one of the best albums DT ever did. The influences don't really bother me, but I think it's absurd when people defend them on the grounds that "all music is ripping off someone". Well, obviousely, but no other band really shows their ifnluences so obviousely; only DT. |
Yep...there is a blatant ripoff of Waters from the Wall. But that's what you get when you lack creativity. Unless of course he intended to do so, in which case he better have throw Waters a bone in the liner notes.
For the record, I much prefer Octavarium, rip offs and all, over Systematic Chaos. I put in SC the other day and couldn't take it anymore during track 3. You know, I keep trying, hoping, but it never pans out. I did end up buying it for collection purposes, but there is a reason SC was collecting dust.
Bring back KMoore!!!!! Bring back the DT of old!
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I can't see the problem with the lack of Moore and a 'new' Dream Theater.
Jordan Rudess is a very gifted musican, more so than Moore IMO,
And time is moving forward, and Dream Theater have never been about 'bringing back their old sound', and consider the amount of bands that tried to do that, and it ended up so uninspiring that you would have preferred the band took a risk and went somewhere new anyway.
But saying that, IMO ToT was the last really great record they did (I'm not a big fan of Octavarium and I thought SC was good but not great).
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 20694
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Posted: March 05 2008 at 02:42 |
StyLaZyn wrote:
p0mt3 wrote:
explodingjosh wrote:
I think that "quoting" and "covering" are completely legal, creativitly wise. In Dream Theater's case, I don't think they even need to explicitly reference a band when they quote them. Like in the intro to Octavarium, its so blatant and obvious what they are quoting (if you know Shine On), a reference in the liner notes would be a "no sh1t" statement for most of their listeners.
I think the problem is when the players sound way too close for comfort to another band. Its disappointing when you're craving new ideas. But I think these moments depend on the listener. I personally was pissed when I heard how James was singing (like R. Waters) in SFaM. I tried to not let it ruin the album for me.
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Thank you! Someone else who can hear the Waters influence in LaBrie's SfaM work!
Having said that, I think SfaM (along with Octavarium, Awake and Images and Words) is one of the best albums DT ever did. The influences don't really bother me, but I think it's absurd when people defend them on the grounds that "all music is ripping off someone". Well, obviousely, but no other band really shows their ifnluences so obviousely; only DT. |
Yep...there is a blatant ripoff of Waters from the Wall. But that's what you get when you lack creativity. Unless of course he intended to do so, in which case he better have throw Waters a bone in the liner notes.
For the record, I much prefer Octavarium, rip offs and all, over Systematic Chaos. I put in SC the other day and couldn't take it anymore during track 3. You know, I keep trying, hoping, but it never pans out. I did end up buying it for collection purposes, but there is a reason SC was collecting dust.
Bring back KMoore!!!!! Bring back the DT of old!
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Do you guys seriously think that Waters invented that particular style? I'm sure that thousands of singer/songwriters did it before him. I wish some people would get off their high horse here ...
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Norbert
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 20 2005
Location: Hungary
Status: Offline
Points: 2506
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Posted: March 05 2008 at 08:25 |
Quotes can be indicated in the sleeve, that could be helpful.
For example Secret Service by After Crying contains a quote from King Cimson's Easy money and it can be read in the CD sleeve.
But if all "influences" were noted in some latter day in Dream Theater songs not much would remain, I'm afraid.
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StyLaZyn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079
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Posted: March 05 2008 at 09:11 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
Do you guys seriously think that Waters invented that particular style? I'm sure that thousands of singer/songwriters did it before him.
I wish some people would get off their high horse here ...
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Mike,
I don't question your point, but would very much like to know who Waters took his style from. I haven't heard every artist/singer out there, but I also have found Waters to be quite unique. I have always felt that Waters style was directly a result of his person and personality. His singing, to me, has always been a great illustration of the lyrics he wrote.
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 20694
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Posted: March 05 2008 at 09:40 |
StyLaZyn wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
Do you guys seriously think that Waters invented that particular style? I'm sure that thousands of singer/songwriters did it before him.
I wish some people would get off their high horse here ...
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Mike,
I don't question your point, but would very much like to know who Waters took his style from. I haven't heard every artist/singer out there, but I also have found Waters to be quite unique. I have always felt that Waters style was directly a result of his person and personality. His singing, to me, has always been a great illustration of the lyrics he wrote.
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Agreed. But I don't think there are enough similarities between the two styles to call it a "rip-off". I'm a huge fan of Pink Floyd and I must have listened to The Wall more than 50 times, but I never ever thought of that album when I listened to Scenes from a Memory. I think that *maybe* they borrowed the concept - vocals and acoustic guitar strumming. But the vocal melody is not related to The Wall at all, and neither are the chord sequences.
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StyLaZyn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079
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Posted: March 05 2008 at 10:46 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
StyLaZyn wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
Do you guys seriously think that Waters invented that particular style? I'm sure that thousands of singer/songwriters did it before him.
I wish some people would get off their high horse here ...
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Mike,
I don't question your point, but would very much like to know who Waters took his style from. I haven't heard every artist/singer out there, but I also have found Waters to be quite unique. I have always felt that Waters style was directly a result of his person and personality. His singing, to me, has always been a great illustration of the lyrics he wrote.
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Agreed. But I don't think there are enough similarities between the two styles to call it a "rip-off". I'm a huge fan of Pink Floyd and I must have listened to The Wall more than 50 times, but I never ever thought of that album when I listened to Scenes from a Memory. I think that *maybe* they borrowed the concept - vocals and acoustic guitar strumming. But the vocal melody is not related to The Wall at all, and neither are the chord sequences.
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OK, example
from The Spirit Carries On
"Where did we come from? Why are we here? Where do we go when we die?"
Now tell me you don't hear either "Nobody's Home" or even more so "One of My Turns". The vocal style is so close.
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keiser willhelm
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Joined: September 14 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1697
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Posted: March 05 2008 at 12:49 |
i can hear it now but ill be honest, i never heard it before. Labrie definitely has a distinct style, like it or not, and it doesnt lend itself well to covering hardly any vocal styles particularly waters. i dont think this was done purposefully i just think he was singing softly and low. thats about it.
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heyitsthatguy
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Joined: April 17 2006
Location: Washington Hgts
Status: Offline
Points: 10094
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Posted: March 05 2008 at 20:27 |
I don't think that vocally LaBrie really sounds like Waters at all that said that chord is DEFINITELY a take from Brain Damage, the way it's set up when listening to both albums I sometimes confuse the two that said it's only one part of the song, and The Spirit Carries On is basically Pink Floyd put into one song for them, nothing wrong with a little tribute (it got out of hand on subsequent albums though beginning with Octavarium and parts of the previous two) ....other than the solo though I kind of feel like that's one of the weakest tracks on the album
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