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Dean 
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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 Posted: October 17 2008 at 05:45 |
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^ Jean, the evalution is now in the hands of Micky, Chris Stacey and myself - rest assured we are using our ears and not the 'opinions' of Caroline Coon or Nick Kent.
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What?
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Ripples
Forum Groupie
Joined: May 13 2005
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 88
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Posted: October 17 2008 at 10:57 |
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I am hearing Banks keyboards from the tune Duchess. Some of the newer stuff he was dabbling in from Duke. I am hearing similar drumming and keyboards as well at times throughout the "Raven", especially on "ICE".
The album "Raven" is as Progressive as the album "Duke", Raven came first though, there I said it!
I would say they are proggy overall in the same vein as "Roxy Music" or "Bowie". They have their moments and that my friends should be enough.
It doesn't hurt either that they had 8 classic albums in a row (77-84) with prog moments thoughout, how many bands can make such a claim..?!
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Hawkwise
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 31 2008
Location: Ontairo
Status: Offline
Points: 4119
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Posted: October 17 2008 at 11:49 |
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Stranglers oh come on, I know lots of Prog Fans who are Stranglers fan's i myself is a big Stranglers fan ive seen the band 6 times First time in 78 but Prog ??? come on thats really pushing it a little to far .
what next The Clash ??? Public Image Ltd ??? Joy Division ??? New Order ?? The Blockheads ?? all Bands i Love But Prog ???? come on might as well call this place the Rock Archives
Edited by Hawkwise - October 17 2008 at 11:52
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: October 17 2008 at 12:03 |
...hang on, I'll get a pen...
...now what was that last band again?  |
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What?
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Ripples
Forum Groupie
Joined: May 13 2005
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 88
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Posted: October 17 2008 at 12:32 |
 Hawkwise wrote:
Stranglers oh come on, I know lots of Prog Fans who are Stranglers fan's i myself is a big Stranglers fan ive seen the band 6 times First time in 78 but Prog ??? come on thats really pushing it a little to far .what next The Clash ??? Public Image Ltd ??? Joy Division ??? New Order ?? The Blockheads ?? all Bands i Love But Prog ???? come on might as well call this place the Rock Archives
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Public Image Limited, the first album most definitely as well as the band Magazine from the same vain.
It depends on which albums though, I still say Raven and Meninblack could be considered as experimental proggy albums! With most of their other albums undeniably featuring strong prog moments. Staying stuck in the early 70s on here is getting stale and lets face it most neo-prog is simply imitating that period to a certain extent.
I would argue that the stranglers are artier, proggier, and more experimental than 50 percent of bands here. They also seemed to adapt to different eras remakably well, as the mighty Crimson did in the early 80s which I for one enjoyed. New wave prog does exist like it or not!
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Vancouver, BC
Status: Offline
Points: 38831
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Posted: October 17 2008 at 12:33 |
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I won't say whether I think it appropriate because I don't feel that I'm familiar enough with the music, but I just want to say that I was mighty impressed to the music links I found in this thread. Very good stuff, and I can hear why it was suggested for inclusion in the archives.
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Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: October 17 2008 at 14:02 |
BaldJean wrote:
I used the archives' own checklist for my argument; an artist that fits most of the criteria should definitely be given close consideration at least. there are MANY bands in here that match with fewer criteria than the Stranglers, and no-one would even dream of arguing them. some people said we would lose credibility as a prog site if we included the Stranglers. it is, however, just the other way round: we lose credibility if we don't follow our own criteria.
and, as I have already said before: most of the uproar against the Stranglers is NOT due to their music but due to the tag the music industry gave them. I find it a bit sad that people go by tags instead of using their ears and truly listening to the music without prejudice; they would quickly find the enormous complexities in the music of the Stranglers and would at least grow some doubts about the categorization of their music |
Jean: only two things:
- We don't guide ourselves by tags, it's a combination, but I rely more in my ears.
- It's not the industry who tagged them as Punk, the beand itself did it:
- http://www.punk77.co.uk/groups/stranglersjjburnelin053.htm
- http://www.bbc.co.uk/norfolk/music/celebrities/the_stranglers.shtml
- http://www.whisperinandhollerin.com/chat/chat.asp?id=1197
Just to end, will do it with a quote
JJ Burnel has however said in an interview, "I certainly considered myself to be a punk-rocker". In another interview he goes further saying, "I would like to think we (The Stranglers) were more punk plus and then some".
So don't blame the industry, they catalogued themselves as Punk....I knoiw yu will mention Robert Fripp, he didn't liked the ter Prog, but he never sais we are X or Y genre, he hated all genre classification; The Stranglers shout "WE ARE PUNK"
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - October 17 2008 at 14:06
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: October 17 2008 at 15:02 |
I have no idea about The Stranglers... I just dropped in to say that these controversial additions surely make for THE best read here in PA! 
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
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Posted: October 17 2008 at 16:47 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
BaldJean wrote:
I used the archives' own checklist for my argument; an artist that fits most of the criteria should definitely be given close consideration at least. there are MANY bands in here that match with fewer criteria than the Stranglers, and no-one would even dream of arguing them. some people said we would lose credibility as a prog site if we included the Stranglers. it is, however, just the other way round: we lose credibility if we don't follow our own criteria.
and, as I have already said before: most of the uproar against the Stranglers is NOT due to their music but due to the tag the music industry gave them. I find it a bit sad that people go by tags instead of using their ears and truly listening to the music without prejudice; they would quickly find the enormous complexities in the music of the Stranglers and would at least grow some doubts about the categorization of their music |
Jean: only two things:
- We don't guide ourselves by tags, it's a combination, but I rely more in my ears.
- It's not the industry who tagged them as Punk, the beand itself did it:
- http://www.punk77.co.uk/groups/stranglersjjburnelin053.htm
- http://www.bbc.co.uk/norfolk/music/celebrities/the_stranglers.shtml
- http://www.whisperinandhollerin.com/chat/chat.asp?id=1197
Just to end, will do it with a quote
JJ Burnel has however said in an interview, "I certainly considered myself to be a punk-rocker". In another interview he goes further saying, "I would like to think we (The Stranglers) were more punk plus and then some".
So don't blame the industry, they catalogued themselves as Punk....I knoiw yu will mention Robert Fripp, he didn't liked the ter Prog, but he never sais we are X or Y genre, he hated all genre classification; The Stranglers shout "WE ARE PUNK"
Iván |
believe it or not, Ivan: I also rely on my ears. it is very interesting that we come to completely different conclusions nevertheless. and I definitely like the "punk plus" quote: does it not say the Stranglers were more than just punk? there should in my opinion be a category named "prog punk" (yes, prog punk). the Stranglers, the Cardiacs and Inner City Unit (a band of Hawkwind saxophonist Nik Turner) would qualify for that genre
Edited by BaldJean - October 17 2008 at 16:54
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 A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46843
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Posted: October 17 2008 at 17:50 |
Logan wrote:
I won't say whether I think it appropriate because I don't feel that I'm familiar enough with the music, but I just want to say that I was mighty impressed to the music links I found in this thread. Very good stuff, and I can hear why it was suggested for inclusion in the archives.
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 exactly my friend...all it takes is a listen to see whether they are added or not, it was a good and thoughtful suggestion. I have LOVED what I have heard... and do thank Jean for the way they took this thread. the team is collating opinions now... as a reminder... as Dean noted.. this band due to the controversial nature of it... has to have the approval of all 3 of it's members for addition. That condition is there for you 'sky is falling' types that think this site is becoming allmusic.com. If a band can convince a big mouthed skinny runt from the states, a wise old fart from the motherland, and... hell... what do you say about Chris anyway.  Anyway.. you get the point... 3 more diverse people you won't find... that is what protects the site. Whether you agree or not.. only deserving bands get in... and yet.. the flip side does happen.. sometimes due to the diversity... not all deserving bands do get in.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Chris S
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 09 2004
Location: Front Range
Status: Offline
Points: 7028
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Posted: October 17 2008 at 21:45 |
micky wrote:
Logan wrote:
I won't say whether I think it appropriate because I don't feel that I'm familiar enough with the music, but I just want to say that I was mighty impressed to the music links I found in this thread. Very good stuff, and I can hear why it was suggested for inclusion in the archives. |
exactly my friend...all it takes is a listen to see whether they are added or not, it was a good and thoughtful suggestion. I have LOVED what I have heard... and do thank Jean for the way they took this thread.
the team is collating opinions now... as a reminder... as Dean noted.. this band due to the controversial nature of it... has to have the approval of all 3 of it's members for addition. That condition is there for you 'sky is falling' types that think this site is becoming allmusic.com. If a band can convince a big mouthed skinny runt from the states, a wise old fart from the motherland, and... hell... what do you say about Chris anyway. Anyway.. you get the point... 3 more diverse people you won't find... that is what protects the site. Whether you agree or not.. only deserving bands get in... and yet.. the flip side does happen.. sometimes due to the diversity... not all deserving bands do get in.
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erm....now what have I done? 
Anyhow diversity of opinions especially controversial ones is what makes these kind of debates so ' political' but as I have learn't music wins hands down every time at everyone elses expense. The Stranglers will be voted on the music without personal emotion.
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<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46843
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Posted: October 18 2008 at 06:30 |
nothing Chris... just realized I didn't have a smart ass playful jab I could throw at you  OT - whoa.... looks like big signatures are back hahah
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46843
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Posted: October 19 2008 at 09:55 |
micky wrote:
Whether you agree or not.. only deserving bands get in... and yet.. the flip side does happen.. sometimes due to the diversity... not all deserving bands do get in.
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prophetic words perhaps... or was I Nostradamus... and foresaw the future hahhaha after a careful.. and thoughtful evaluation. The crossover team has rejected The Stranglers. The reasons... the music while definitely more than 'ordinary' mainstream music... and quality aside....just wasn't quite up to what the team saw as prog.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Ripples
Forum Groupie
Joined: May 13 2005
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 88
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Posted: October 20 2008 at 13:05 |
Damn it all to hell!
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
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Posted: October 21 2008 at 05:39 |
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I really fail to understand this. I am honestly asking myself whether I
am on the right site anymore or not. the door has been opened to bands
which in my opinion don't belong at all (Steely Dan, for example;
whoever decided that must really have been sitting on their ears) and
the Stranglers are being rejected.
a note to the administrators: I
hereby resign from my post as prog reviewer; please set me to "senior
member". if our opinions about what prog is are so very different I am
not apt for that post
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46843
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Posted: October 21 2008 at 06:13 |
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Steely Dan and the Stranglers are apples and oranges Jean. Completely different in just about every sense.
we gave them a fair eval... sorry you think otherwise.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Windhawk
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 28 2006
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 11401
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Posted: October 21 2008 at 06:36 |
Told someone else here that this would happen a couple of weeks ago; so not a surprising development at all. I wonder how sites like this would be if everyone had that my way or the highway attitude...
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Websites I work with:
http://www.progressor.net
http://www.houseofprog.com
My profile on Mixcloud:
https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
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Posted: October 21 2008 at 11:06 |
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well, I stick to what I said; I am obviously inept by the standards of this site. my votum seperatum, however, is that the team which decided it is inept. and I will stick to that too
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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Ripples
Forum Groupie
Joined: May 13 2005
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 88
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Posted: October 21 2008 at 13:20 |
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Countdown to Ecstasy by Steely Dan has a multitude of early prog moments on it, however, that being said so does the Raven and Meninblack by the Stranglers!
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24439
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Posted: October 21 2008 at 13:23 |
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Personally, I was in favour of the addition, but I am not going to lose sleep over that (I already do over a number of much more important things). That said, I don't think insulting the team members in the public forum is the way to go. Even if I wasn't personally involved with one of them (and I am), as someone who was a genre team member for over two years, I like my work to be respected, even if one may disagree with it.
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The Stranglers???
