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Topic ClosedThe Stranglers???
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Poll Question: Are the Stranglers Eligible for this sight as a classic progger?
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11 [25.58%]
7 [16.28%]
25 [58.14%]
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Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 21 2008 at 14:21
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:


a note to the administrators: I hereby resign from my post as prog reviewer; please set me to "senior member". if our opinions about what prog is are so very different I am not apt for that post
 
Jean, is not inept, every Collaborator has suffered the rejection of more than one bands, in my case "The Bonzo Dog Doo Dah Band" from Proto Prog among many others like "Panza" from Argentina in this exact moment.
 
Micky has proposed at least 4 bands that have been rejected (I remember the Jon Lord case which I personally rejected from Symphonic and Micky stayed), Raffaella also, and as we all the Collaborators at least one time.
 
There are even worst cases, Collaborators that have added bands that have been removed, and they are still here, because this is not personal, it's a matter of opinions.
 
If we all resigned because a band was rejected, there would be no more Collaborators in Prog Archives.
 
But it's your call, if you feel so affected for one band being rejected, while all of us had to accept the decisions of another team and the rules of the site, well, there's nothing we can do.
 
I hope you reconsider your option, because you're a valuable collaborator, but the call is your's.
 
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Points: 10387 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 21 2008 at 14:16
Originally posted by Angelo Angelo wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

well, I stick to what I said; I am obviously inept by the standards of this site. my votum seperatum, however, is that the team which decided it is inept. and I will stick to that too


May I suggest a cool down here? Confused

Angelo, I am not heated at all, I am merely stating a fact: either I or the responsible team is inept. I would have staked my reputation on the fact that the Stranglers are fully prog; if they are not I am inept by my own standards. if they however are, then obviously the team is inept. and that's not name-calling at all; it can't be if I concede my own possible ineptitude. I was totally serious when I wrote my status of "prog reviewer" should be removed; how can I be trusted as a prog reviewer if my assertion of the Stranglers is so blatantly wrong?
their rejection, however, raises a serious discussion about what we call prog. I gave a checklist for the Stranglers, using the site's own standards. if they still fail to be accepted nevertheless then we should in my opinion redefine the standards, and in a way that makes the rejection of the Stranglers somewhat plausible, or else we lose credibility


Edited by BaldJean - October 21 2008 at 14:17


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Points: 38849 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 21 2008 at 13:52
Except that Metallica had been rejected before, and was later re-considered and added (I know that was M@X's decree).  Decisions are not caste in stone, well, not always. I don't know if the Stranglers had been evaluated previously by a Prog team, but I would think that a recommendation by a Prog team for Related that has evaluated the band would count for quite a lot (if they endorsed it for PR).The admins' decision, of course, and I don't wish to open up a can of worms.


Edited by Logan - October 21 2008 at 13:54
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Points: 13244 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 21 2008 at 13:52
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

well, I stick to what I said; I am obviously inept by the standards of this site. my votum seperatum, however, is that the team which decided it is inept. and I will stick to that too


May I suggest a cool down here? Confused
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Points: 24439 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 21 2008 at 13:33
They were rejected by PR about six months ago - which means they'll stay out of the DB, unless another team endorses them (which is unlikely at this point). As I said in my earlier post, I understand disappointment, but I can't condone name-calling. 
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Points: 38849 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 21 2008 at 13:32
From what I've read and heard, I expect that there was stronger case for The Stranglers in Prog-Related anyway.  Now that it has been rejected by Crossover, perhaps that team will formally suggest it to, or has proposed/ endorsed it for, Prog Related.
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Points: 24439 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 21 2008 at 13:23
Personally, I was in favour of the addition, but I am not going to lose sleep over that (I already do over a number of much more important things). That said, I don't think insulting the team members in the public forum is the way to go. Even if I wasn't personally involved with one of them (and I am), as someone who was a genre team member for over two years, I like my work to be respected, even if one may disagree with it.
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Points: 88 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 21 2008 at 13:20
Countdown to Ecstasy by Steely Dan has a multitude of early prog moments on it, however, that being said so does the Raven and Meninblack by the Stranglers!
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Points: 10387 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 21 2008 at 11:06
well, I stick to what I said; I am obviously inept by the standards of this site. my votum seperatum, however, is that the team which decided it is inept. and I will stick to that too


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Points: 11401 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 21 2008 at 06:36

Told someone else here that this would happen a couple of weeks ago; so not a surprising development at all. I wonder how sites like this would be if everyone had that my way or the highway attitude...
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Points: 46843 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 21 2008 at 06:13
Steely Dan and the Stranglers are apples and oranges Jean. Completely different in just about every sense.



we gave them a fair eval...  sorry you think otherwise.  
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Points: 10387 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 21 2008 at 05:39
I really fail to understand this. I am honestly asking myself whether I am on the right site anymore or not. the door has been opened to bands which in my opinion don't belong at all  (Steely Dan, for example; whoever decided that must really have been sitting on their ears) and the Stranglers are being rejected.
a note to the administrators: I hereby resign from my post as prog reviewer; please set me to "senior member". if our opinions about what prog is are so very different I am not apt for that post


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Points: 88 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 20 2008 at 13:05
Damn it all to hell!

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Points: 46843 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 19 2008 at 09:55
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

   Whether you agree or not.. only deserving bands get in... and yet.. the flip side does happen.. sometimes due to the diversity... not all deserving bands do get in.


prophetic words perhaps... or was I Nostradamus...  and foresaw the future hahhaha

after a careful.. and thoughtful evaluation.  The crossover team has rejected The Stranglers.  The reasons...   the music while definitely more than 'ordinary' mainstream music... and quality aside....just wasn't quite up to what the team saw as prog. 

 


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Points: 46843 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2008 at 06:30
nothing Chris...  just realized I didn't have a smart ass playful  jab I could throw at you LOL

OT - whoa.... looks like big signatures are back hahah
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Points: 7028 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 17 2008 at 21:45
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

I won't say whether I think it appropriate because I don't feel that I'm familiar enough with the music, but I just want to say that I was mighty impressed to the music links I found in this thread. Very good stuff, and I can hear why it was suggested for inclusion in the archives.



Clap exactly my friend...all it takes is a listen to see whether they are added or not, it was a good and thoughtful suggestion.  I have LOVED what I have heard... and do thank Jean for the way they took this thread.

the team is collating opinions now...  as a reminder... as Dean noted.. this band due to the controversial nature of it... has to have the approval of all 3 of it's members for addition.   That condition is there for you 'sky is falling' types that think this site is becoming allmusic.com. If a band can convince a big mouthed skinny runt from the states, a wise old fart from the motherland,  and... hell...  what do you say about Chris anyway.  Angry  Anyway.. you get the point...  3 more diverse people you won't find... that is what protects the site.  Whether you agree or not.. only deserving bands get in... and yet.. the flip side does happen.. sometimes due to the diversity... not all deserving bands do get in.
 
erm....now what have I done?Smile
 
Anyhow diversity of opinions especially controversial ones is what makes these kind of debates so ' political' but as I have learn't music wins hands down every time at everyone elses expense. The Stranglers will be voted on the music without personal emotion.
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Points: 46843 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 17 2008 at 17:50
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

I won't say whether I think it appropriate because I don't feel that I'm familiar enough with the music, but I just want to say that I was mighty impressed to the music links I found in this thread. Very good stuff, and I can hear why it was suggested for inclusion in the archives.



Clap exactly my friend...all it takes is a listen to see whether they are added or not, it was a good and thoughtful suggestion.  I have LOVED what I have heard... and do thank Jean for the way they took this thread.

the team is collating opinions now...  as a reminder... as Dean noted.. this band due to the controversial nature of it... has to have the approval of all 3 of it's members for addition.   That condition is there for you 'sky is falling' types that think this site is becoming allmusic.com. If a band can convince a big mouthed skinny runt from the states, a wise old fart from the motherland,  and... hell...  what do you say about Chris anyway.  Angry  Anyway.. you get the point...  3 more diverse people you won't find... that is what protects the site.  Whether you agree or not.. only deserving bands get in... and yet.. the flip side does happen.. sometimes due to the diversity... not all deserving bands do get in.
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Points: 10387 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 17 2008 at 16:47
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

I used the archives' own checklist for my argument; an artist that fits most of the criteria should definitely be given close consideration at least. there are MANY bands in here that match with fewer criteria than the Stranglers, and no-one would even dream of arguing them. some people said we would lose credibility as a prog site if we included the Stranglers. it is, however, just the other way round: we lose credibility if we don't follow our own criteria.
and, as I have already said before: most of the uproar against the Stranglers is NOT due to their music but due to the tag the music industry gave them. I find it a bit sad that people go by tags instead of using their ears and truly listening to the music without prejudice; they would quickly find the enormous complexities in the music of the Stranglers and would at least grow some doubts about the categorization of their music
 
Jean: only two things:
  1. We don't guide ourselves by tags, it's a combination, but I rely more in my ears.
  2. It's not the industry who tagged them as Punk, the beand itself did it:
    1. http://www.punk77.co.uk/groups/stranglersjjburnelin053.htm
    2. http://www.bbc.co.uk/norfolk/music/celebrities/the_stranglers.shtml
    3. http://www.whisperinandhollerin.com/chat/chat.asp?id=1197

Just to end, will do it with a quote

JJ Burnel has however said in an interview, "I certainly considered myself to be a punk-rocker". In another interview he goes further saying, "I would like to think we (The Stranglers) were more punk plus and then some".
 
 
So don't blame the industry, they catalogued themselves as Punk....I knoiw yu will mention Robert Fripp, he didn't liked the ter Prog, but he never sais we are  X or Y genre, he hated all genre classification; The Stranglers shout "WE ARE PUNK"
 
Iván

believe it or not, Ivan: I also rely on my ears. it is very interesting that we come to completely different conclusions nevertheless.
and I definitely like the "punk plus" quote: does it not say the Stranglers were more than just punk? there should in my opinion be a category named "prog punk" (yes, prog punk). the Stranglers, the Cardiacs and Inner City Unit (a band of Hawkwind saxophonist Nik Turner) would qualify for that genre


Edited by BaldJean - October 17 2008 at 16:54


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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 17 2008 at 15:02
I have no idea about The Stranglers... I just dropped in to say that these controversial additions surely make for THE best read here in PA! Tongue
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 17 2008 at 14:02
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

I used the archives' own checklist for my argument; an artist that fits most of the criteria should definitely be given close consideration at least. there are MANY bands in here that match with fewer criteria than the Stranglers, and no-one would even dream of arguing them. some people said we would lose credibility as a prog site if we included the Stranglers. it is, however, just the other way round: we lose credibility if we don't follow our own criteria.
and, as I have already said before: most of the uproar against the Stranglers is NOT due to their music but due to the tag the music industry gave them. I find it a bit sad that people go by tags instead of using their ears and truly listening to the music without prejudice; they would quickly find the enormous complexities in the music of the Stranglers and would at least grow some doubts about the categorization of their music
 
Jean: only two things:
  1. We don't guide ourselves by tags, it's a combination, but I rely more in my ears.
  2. It's not the industry who tagged them as Punk, the beand itself did it:
    1. http://www.punk77.co.uk/groups/stranglersjjburnelin053.htm
    2. http://www.bbc.co.uk/norfolk/music/celebrities/the_stranglers.shtml
    3. http://www.whisperinandhollerin.com/chat/chat.asp?id=1197

Just to end, will do it with a quote

JJ Burnel has however said in an interview, "I certainly considered myself to be a punk-rocker". In another interview he goes further saying, "I would like to think we (The Stranglers) were more punk plus and then some".
 
 
So don't blame the industry, they catalogued themselves as Punk....I knoiw yu will mention Robert Fripp, he didn't liked the ter Prog, but he never sais we are  X or Y genre, he hated all genre classification; The Stranglers shout "WE ARE PUNK"
 
Iván
 
 
 


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - October 17 2008 at 14:06
            
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