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Points: 900 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: Camel Canterbury?
    Posted: March 01 2009 at 21:56
Now, I keep hearing it mentioned elsewhere that Camel are a Canterbury scene band, but PA does not really acknowledge this. What is the band's connection to the rest of the scene, are they a part of it, and if they are, why aren't they included in the neat little Canterbury scene category? I searched a bit, but this is a hard thing to search for, you know...
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Points: 31169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2009 at 22:02
I just don't see a lot of connection to the scene, through either their personal connections or their music, other than Richard Sinclair and some other Caravan members joining up after Moonmadness.  To me, when thinking about Canterbury they never come to mind as being a part of all that; although, the term "Canterbury" itself is a pretty nebulous and odd concept:  almost none of the bands of that "scene" came from Canterbury.
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Points: 7028 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2009 at 22:13
^^ Going by ' perception' I would tend to agree that they sound the least canterbury of the lot. Still even tagged under a genre they are hard to beat!
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Points: 10616 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2009 at 02:44
Apart from what has been mentioned about Caravan's Richard Sinclair joining Camel, I think that Camel is also influenced by Caravan in an earlier stage.  At least, I remember Ed Macan having said that in his book about prog rock, and it sounds logical to me. But although Caravan is one of the most important Canterbury bands, their music is not the most representative of the Canterbury scene as a whole. But in my ears, Caravan and Camel have some likeness in sound.
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Points: 24439 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2009 at 07:45
Well, according to someone, Caravan are as 'inoffensive' as Camel, so there should be reason enoughWink...

Seriously, I think that the main reason is the presence of Richard Sinclair in the band for two studio and part of one live album, even though there might be musical similarities (which I really don't see, but that's probably a limit of mine).
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Points: 24797 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2009 at 07:58

'Canterbury' may be a pretty nebulous and odd concept indeed, but music from Canterbury bands has often a jazzy or psychedelic element. And although there may be some remote similarity between Camel and Caravan, I think that Camel's music is far more symphonic and the bands are more alike from an alphabetical point of view.



Edited by someone_else - March 02 2009 at 08:05
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Points: 7456 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2009 at 08:13
The 'Canterbury' band that I believe that Camel sound closest to is Supersister (Who came from The Netherlands...sic).

The flute sound is similar in style to that of Andrew Latimers and the vocals are not dis-similar to Richard Sinclair's.

The similarity in sound is especially noticeable on the first two Camel albums.Camel even 'dedicated' a track (Supertwister from the Mirage album) to Supersister.

I believe that the reason for Supersister's 'Canterbury' accreditation is because of their paying homage to The Mothers of Invention. The band that a lot of 'Canterbury' bands tried to emulate to a certain extent.

Edited by Man Erg - March 02 2009 at 08:24

Do 'The Stanley' otherwise I'll thrash you with some rhubarb.
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Points: 15745 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2009 at 08:21
I don't think the relation is much of the entry of Richard in "later" albums.

Camel's debut album, is certainly not Syphonic, and definitely is directed more in the Canterbury side, but that's it really....
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Points: 24439 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2009 at 08:23
Originally posted by cacho cacho wrote:

I don't think the relation is much of the entry of Richard in "later" albums.

Camel's debut album, is certainly not Syphonic, and definitely is directed more in the Canterbury side, but that's it really....


Actually, if I told you what I think a lot of Camel's debut sounds like, you'd laugh me off the site... First time I heard it, all I could think of was Santana - believe it or not.Wink
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Points: 46843 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2009 at 08:23
I always got a King Crimson vibe from Camel's debut...
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Points: 5851 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2009 at 09:54
In my opinion also some King Crimson's albums are 'Canterbury Scene' style...
 
...also because for me Canterbury is only a 'Psychedelic Jazz in Rock' (ConfusedSmileErmm) style!
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Points: 15745 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2009 at 09:58
Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

Originally posted by cacho cacho wrote:

I don't think the relation is much of the entry of Richard in "later" albums.

Camel's debut album, is certainly not Syphonic, and definitely is directed more in the Canterbury side, but that's it really....


Actually, if I told you what I think a lot of Camel's debut sounds like, you'd laugh me off the site... First time I heard it, all I could think of was Santana - believe it or not.Wink


Raff you nailed it! The first album of Santana specially, yes. And well, also Abraxas....

But after all, those two Santana albums, aren't so Jazz-Rock, compared to CaravanseraiWink
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Points: 1818 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2009 at 10:27
There can be a hint , but they aren't part of the Canterbury scene for sure.
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Points: 1250 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2009 at 10:34
I wrote it few times in the past. I don't think Canterbury is a real sub-genre. Egg is very classical influenced (a kind of softened Nice for me), National health reminds me a lot of Return to forever, I see Caravan of a mix of soft jazz and folk while the more hard core bands (mainly Soft machine & Gong) are mixing psychadelia, jazzy elements and avant-garde. Robert Wyatt in his deeper albums (Rock bottom, Old rottenhat) sounds kind of avant-garde to me.
Now, I don't see Camel as something close to any of these bands / artists.
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Points: 1085 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2009 at 10:38
I think the comparison comes from the crossing of members with a blatantly Canterbury band (Caravan) - but that doesn't automatically make Camel Canterbury...
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Points: 12818 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2009 at 11:57
There are certain schools of thought, that make all in sundry "Canterbury" if these musicians have worked with more obvious Canterbury musicians. Hence some think that the presence of Dave Stewart in Bruford, makes Bill Bruford  "Canterbury."  To pick up on the aforementioned Ed Macan's Rocking the Classics, he has Allan Holdsworth included as "a typical Canterbury guitarist" - as sometime prog and Canterbury scholar : I think not!.
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Points: 1601 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2009 at 15:27

It's a widely critisized label, not the music in the genre itselft, but if it's a genre.  I think it's not really that connected, but I still refer to many bands as Canterbury bands, because there are similarities.  But look at Soft Machine, they all moved to Canterbury shortly before forming the band,  so theres no actual connection there either.  It's just that a lot of the bands share similar members.  Such as Camel containing Richard Sincliar, David Sinclair, and Jan Shelhaas, all having also been in caravan/
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Points: 610 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2009 at 20:11
Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

Originally posted by cacho cacho wrote:

I don't think the relation is much of the entry of Richard in "later" albums.

Camel's debut album, is certainly not Syphonic, and definitely is directed more in the Canterbury side, but that's it really....


Actually, if I told you what I think a lot of Camel's debut sounds like, you'd laugh me off the site... First time I heard it, all I could think of was Santana - believe it or not.Wink
 
Yeah Slow yourself down and Six ate have a Santana feel. I really like the first album and I think it is better than Mirage. Sixate, Mystic Queen, Never let go are strong tunes. While Separation, Curiosity are quite good. I think Slow yourself down is musically strong, but latimer's voice sounds funny. Arubaluba is good in bits but a bit simplistic in ideas. But overall the debut is maybe the greatest debut album I've ever heard.
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Points: 12818 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2009 at 05:00
Originally posted by himtroy himtroy wrote:

But look at Soft Machine, they all moved to Canterbury shortly before forming the band,  so theres no actual connection there either.  It's just that a lot of the bands share similar members. 

 
 
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Points: 4888 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2009 at 10:10
Originally posted by NaturalScience NaturalScience wrote:

I just don't see a lot of connection to the scene, through either their personal connections or their music, other than Richard Sinclair and some other Caravan members joining up after Moonmadness.  To me, when thinking about Canterbury they never come to mind as being a part of all that; although, the term "Canterbury" itself is a pretty nebulous and odd concept:  almost none of the bands of that "scene" came from Canterbury.
 
Natural Science nailed it big time. CAMEL has connections to teh Canterbury prog scene mostly regarding line-up variations. In terms of style and compositional frameworks, CAMEL is clearly symphonic.
 
Having said that, it is really clear that Barden's treatment of his Hammond organ sounds are more related to the sort of sound pursued by Canterbury keyboardists from HATFIELD and CARAVAN than to other big names from the standard symphonic trend (Emerson, Wakeman). Also consider that some Canterbury keyboardists felt somewhat influenced by early Emerson (circa The Nice), one of them being the prolific Dave Stewart. It is clear in the EGG albums.
 
   Kind regards.
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