The Christian Thread

Captain Capricorn wrote: Epignosis wrote: If a Jew is offended, then they must be offended by Christianity itself:   not true. It is offensive because it undermines judaism.

Look- it's a tenet of most major religions (either an explicit or implicit one) that other religions are not true.

An atheist believes there is no God, therefore Christianity is wrong.  Do I take offense because an atheist's belief "undermines Christianity?"  No.  Other people's beliefs do not offend me.  Please don't speak on behalf of Jews (saying my belief is offensive to Jews) because you are not a Jew (by your own admission, you are Buddhist).

But this is a unique case- I believe Judaism is historically and theologically true, but that it is all fulfilled in Christ.  That's basic Christianity 101.  I won't apologize for that.

Slartibartfast wrote: Have to ask this.  Is anyone here familiar with the Residents'  Wormwood?

Somewhat, yes.

Captain Capricorn wrote: Epignosis wrote: Regarding the embolden statement above, I would agree to that, but only superficially-   In the book  of Romans, Paul describes how ancient Judaism was a preparation, as it were, for Christ.  The author of the book of Hebrews makes similar arguments. That said, I believe Abraham (though he lived before Christ died and rose again) was saved by grace through faith (just as I am).   Romans & Hebrews are both documents from the new testament. Those are words written by a christian, not a jew. You'll never find a reference in the tanakh to the judaic religion being simply the groundwork for christianity ...I'm not sure how many practicing jews there are on this forum, but I guarentee they would find that insulting.

Yes- Romans and Hebrews are Christian documents that see the Old Testament as a preparation for Christ. 

If a Jew is offended, then they must be offended by Christianity itself: That is a standard Christian belief, that Christ is the fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecies and typologies.

Captain Capricorn wrote: Epignosis wrote: But what I referred to in my previous post was that ancient Hebrews did use a variety of instruments in their ceremonies, national victories, and in praising God (recall that David was a harpist).   Indeed, the Jews had no problem with music being paired with worship, but comparing christianity to ancient judaism is a bit of a streatch, don't you think? ...I mean, we're talking about a religion that was formulated in 1900 BCE & one formulated in 100 AD ...ancient judaism wasn't a form of early christianity, you know?

As a Christian, I count the Tanakh (the Old Testament) on equal footing as the New Testament- these two collections make up the Bible.  Regarding the embolden statement above, I would agree to that, but only superficially-

In the book  of Romans, Paul describes how ancient Judaism was a preparation, as it were, for Christ.  The author of the book of Hebrews makes similar arguments.

That said, I believe Abraham (though he lived before Christ died and rose again) was saved by grace through faith (just as I am).

Captain Capricorn wrote: "musical instruments were not used. The pipe, tabret, and harp here associate so intimately with the sensual heathen cults, as well as with the wild revelries and shameless performances of the degenerate theater and circus, it is easy to understand the prejudices against their use in the worship." - Augustine The lute/guitar was also frowned upon because of its association with Apollo, the Greek God of the sun, music, & poetry...at the time the christian religion was formulated, it developed alongside the cult of Apollo (Constantine was an Apollonian). Apollonians used music as a direct connection to God through ecstacy. In it's early stages, the church comdemned the use of music during worship, but eventually allowed for choral & chant arrangements...later the organ was introduced & from there other instruments were allowed to creep in.   I think music absolutely belongs in worship regardless of the religion...few things have the ability to make me feel so alive & greatful for it!

For the most part, Augustine's quote is true (from my research), but also because early Christians avoided certain scales / modes, which were thought to impart certain spiritual feelings.

But what I referred to in my previous post was that ancient Hebrews did use a variety of instruments in their ceremonies, national victories, and in praising God (recall that David was a harpist).

Henry Plainview wrote: Epignosis wrote: I know many churches, particularly those with a wide generational span, have experienced "worship wars," those difficult times when people can't agree on what music is appropriate for church.  Hymns?  Too boring and traditional.  Contemporary music?  Too loud and irreverent.  Many churches even resort to holding two services- one with one kind of music, and one with the other. Not just generationally, acoustic guitars and tambourines set my teeth on edge. But contemporary praise music is part of a larger problem in my view of watering down Catholicism with Protestantism, and since I'm sure most of the people in this thread are Protestant... That said, the type of music is irrelevant:  From a theological standpoint, yes. But you shouldn't be so quick to dismiss the discomfort of those who find contemporary music asinine--their ability to focus on God is important too.   Although at the moment I'm a pretty terrible Catholic so I guess I don't have much room to talk. ;-)

I actually don't dismiss people's discomfort regarding certain forms of music, but I do acknowledge it as a secondary matter compared to a worshipful heart.

I mean, if we had traditional praise songs in the strictest sense, we would be singing in ancient Hebrew, and playing ancient Near Eastern instruments, which I suspect would make most of us today cringe (unless you are a Samla Mammas Manna fan ).

Epignosis wrote: I know many churches, particularly those with a wide generational span, have experienced "worship wars," those difficult times when people can't agree on what music is appropriate for church.  Hymns?  Too boring and traditional.  Contemporary music?  Too loud and irreverent.  Many churches even resort to holding two services- one with one kind of music, and one with the other.

From a theological standpoint, yes. But you shouldn't be so quick to dismiss the discomfort of those who find contemporary music asinine--their ability to focus on God is important too.

 

Although at the moment I'm a pretty terrible Catholic so I guess I don't have much room to talk. ;-)

Moogtron III wrote: I'm a pastor myself, and the Bible is a great inspiration for me. Currently I'm leading a Bible study on the book of Revelation, which is pretty heavy stuff, but very interesting and appealing anyway. Our church is small but many people are really serious about their faith, which is really cool. Currently I'm in a national working group which wants to investigate how to let our churches really go along with the times which are a-changin'. Also I'm leading international christian youth camps where youth from Africa and Europe meet and study the Bible together and do social projects for people who live in the margin of society. We want to include the US as well, by the way. As for the musical wars: there's no war in our church, but we have the people who prefer traditional songs and people who like the modern stuff. With some church members we have a band now, also performing in church from time to time. I'm playing keys. Alas, no prog in this band (I do have an other group where I can play prog), but from time to time I'll play some intricaye chords on my keys, and one of my guitar players can play Shine On You Crazy Diamond perfectly. not during church service, obviously, although my oldest brother in his young days, playing in church, often put some Beatle melodies alongside the hymns

Welcome!

I remember the time my friends and I played "Comfortably Numb" at a church talent show once.

I'm a pastor myself, and the Bible is a great inspiration for me. Currently I'm leading a Bible study on the book of Revelation, which is pretty heavy stuff, but very interesting and appealing anyway. Our church is small but many people are really serious about their faith, which is really cool. Currently I'm in a national working group which wants to investigate how to let our churches really go along with the times which are a-changin'. Also I'm leading international christian youth camps where youth from Africa and Europe meet and study the Bible together and do social projects for people who live in the margin of society. We want to include the US as well, by the way.

As for the musical wars: there's no war in our church, but we have the people who prefer traditional songs and people who like the modern stuff. With some church members we have a band now, also performing in church from time to time. I'm playing keys. Alas, no prog in this band (I do have an other group where I can play prog), but from time to time I'll play some intricaye chords on my keys, and one of my guitar players can play Shine On You Crazy Diamond perfectly. not during church service, obviously, although my oldest brother in his young days, playing in church, often put some Beatle melodies alongside the hymns



Edited by Moogtron III - March 19 2009 at 16:49

progismylife wrote: Speaking of rappers, have you heard of Shai Linne? He has AWESOME lyrics. Seriously the best ones I have ever heard.

I have not, and I do happen to like some rap music, so that will be something to check out.