Magma´s ideology controversy. Read this!

Oh no not this thread again....

Edited by Guldbamsen - April 29 2014 at 10:59

toroddfuglesteg wrote:   fuxi wrote:   I've always wondered if the sleeve of Little Red Record wasn't meant as parody. I doubt it. Back in those days, laughter was banned as the subversive middle class thing it was.

Time to sin. Time to revive a dead post. I hate to be a necroposter and bringing up a thread that may be completely dead, but there's something fishy here: is it dead because the rumours actually died or is it because the discussion merely ran out of steam? Was there ever any sort of resolution? Have I missed anything?

Ever since I got into Magma (which is just a couple of years ago) this debate has been popping up from time to time and the amount of misinformation flying around here is simply staggering. I'm frankly exasperated with the stupidity. I think it's unfair to Magma and I think it's unfair to all the fans of Magma--and most importantly, I don't think it's fair to common sense. Therefore, I have chosen to revive this thread and ask some questions and throw in some observations of my own. It's impossible for me to just ignore--not because I'm some sort of fanatic Magma fan, but because in general I think misinformation and stupid rumours should be put to death before they actually begin causing real trouble.

First of all, the questions:

1. What exactly is nazi about Kobaïan ideology?

The reason I ask is because from what I've managed to gather about their albums, it's pretty far from nazis. If anything, it'd be an insane suicide cult that has occult Egyptian leanings. Let's go through some of the albums here:

The liner notes to Kobaïa are meant to explain the songs, and either I'm blind or there's not the slightest Nazi message. They arrive on the planet they call Kobaïa, and there they're accepted by the resident "monsters" and essentially live happily forever after. This is reflected in the notes, this is arguably reflected by the tone of music. No nazi message. Unless you mean Vander's crazy screaming monologues in which he yells the same thing he will repeat on many albums henceforth (something with Ïtah dë Stauhi bla bla Magma Argesdrah bla bla). Sounds more like he's introducing the band like a maniac; hell in his monologue on the opening song, he yells ZANKA ZANKA ZANKA. Zanka apparently means "sun".

The notes to 1001 Centigrades in the Studio Zünd box state that the sidelong Rïah Sahïltaahk is essentially a story of hubris and nemesis. A Kobaïan holy man thinks he can talk down a raging storm and ends up drowning. The other songs are hard to place, but at least the lyrics to 'Iss' Lanseï Doïa actually have some Kobaïan words in them that I would purport to be able to translate: "Sündia / lantseï doïa / zï sürah / hündïn Kobah". In any case, that's what it sounds like, and the first part supposedly means "Rest in peace / don't run away". If anything, I'd say this song is about some guy having a dream he thinks is a nightmare because he hasn't bothered to look into it more. Again, I don't see the nazi message. Would the rhythmic barking he does once in a while constitute the nazi message here?

Then we have Mekanïk Destruktïw Kommandöh, subtitled "the judgement of humanity for [bla bla bla list sins here]", as seen on the album cover. I can't remember the list verbatim off the top of my head, but take a look at your own copy--if you own one--and you'll see. We have the good old Nebëhr Gudahtt who essentially manages to convince everyone on Earth to kill themselves or at least shed their physical form. There's marching. There's definitely some sort of war. There's definitely ideology. There's definitely the word "incinerator". Am I in denial if I say that I STILL can't see the nazi? It sounds military, yes, but if military equals nazi then I'm sorry, all of us who'd ever been in the armed forces are f***ing worshipping Hitler, and that's really not the case.

Let's look at the Köhntarkösz cycle before I go on to the next question. It's about a pharaoh who almost discovers the secret to eternal life, but is murdered. Then some angsty archeologist kid is led to his tomb by locals recognizing him as the coming prophet, goes into the pyramid and has the spirit of the pharaoh pass on to him all of his knowledge. I feel really dumb for asking now, because it's ridiculous to even CONSIDER this, but: What is the nazi message in this?

2. Where does the idea that Vander has a castle come from?

I've heard it mentioned a couple of times but from what I can gather from interviews, they'd never been particularly well off in the beginning, and I have no reasons to believe Vander lives in any kind of luxury today. A pretty house maybe; I doubt he's in any sort of dire straits financially, but a CASTLE? This sounds about as stupid as the story about Vander and Top sitting in castles and fighting eachother with black magic, which is also mentioned in passing by the actual author of the book containing that ridiculous story, if you need more sources.

What other ridiculous "facts" about Vander have I managed to miss..? Let me guess, he has actually resurrected Hitler and keeps him as a pet in the dungeons of his castle. I mean it's pretty hard for me to take this rumour seriously at all. Nevertheless, it's not important.

3. Why is the distinction between Christian Vander and Magma missing?

Vander is one man with many projects--Magma being one of them, arguably the biggest of them. Nevertheless, Magma is Magma and Vander is Vander. It's true that Vander is the driving force in it, but it's hardly a vehicle for his personal views--see my ramble under question no. 1 above. So what if he is fascinated with Hitler and nazism? They were iconic, it can't be denied. They had style, so to speak. That doesn't mean he supports their twisted world view. Again, the many inconsistencies have been pointed out here: Stella Vander, his ex-wife being Jewish (and from Poland, to boot); a lot of the performers in Magma being dark-skinned (Garber) or Jewish (Lasry); some of Vander's friends and idols being black (Coltrane, Redding, Jones)...
If he's inspired by the nazi chic aesthetic, why not let him be? Don't get me started on the things most of us here are living and fascinated by on a daily basis, because some of their origins and nature is equally dark if not worse. Vander is not a nazi. This can't be overstated. Furthermore, to return to the question, Vander is Vander and Magma is Magma, so what reasons do we have to assume that he uses his project to disseminate his fascination with Hitler?

Now then, time for me to give my own five cents on all of this. I've heard bulls*** left and right about people "learning Kobaïan", about the songs having messages, yes, about Nazi ideology being presented... I've already addressed most of this above, so I'll head straight for the linguistic territory (which happens to be my specialty). Let's look at Kobaïan and why you can't "understand" Magma's music through supposedly "learning" Kobaïan. First of all, the sources on Kobaïan are limited at best: official sources comprise the poem on the back of 1001 Centigrades and the track titles of Wurdah Ïtah. Have I missed any here? Good luck piecing any information on the language from that. Again, I will claim that you can't learn Kobaïan, much less learn to understand the music of Magma through it.

While it sounds German at times (I speak German, by the way), the whole German schtick is more goofy and nonsensical than anything, even if it does get a bit sinister, such as in that one video of a Zëss performance where Vander starts the Kobaïan version of his monologue and... actually lapses into broken German. What's sinister here is that at one point he says what sounds unmistakably like "wir werden Toten" and "sie werden stürmen" which would roughly mean "we will be dead/we will kill" (depending on how you interpret the brokenness) and [grammatically correct] "they will storm". There's also "zu sein, zu sein" ("to be, to be") and probably other examples. What I think is that he simply likes the sound of German, and sometimes words slip in. It's a very "hard" or "tough"-sounding language and its hardness befits the force of Magma's zeuhl. However, the band has stated on multiple occasions that the language is essentially gibberish.

"The language has of course a content, but not word by word", states Klaus Blasquiz in this interview.
In another interview we have Vander saying "I sing with new words that I don't know, and when I am improvising further, the same words come back, even though I don't know them. But I didn't learn them, they impose themselves on me." In the same interview he confirms that words from existing Earth languages slip in occasionally, "[s]ometimes there is a word that is maybe French or English and I leave it in because it is there, and it's natural."
Adds Vander in yet another interview, "People don’t understand Kobaïan full stop anyway." If there was a message to be conveyed in the music, conveying it in a way noone understands seems a pretty poor way to do so. "[It] was really sounds that were coming at the same time as the music", he said.
It's true that there have been Kobaïan words with meanings. Here again we're talking the poem on the back of 1001 Centigrades and the titles of the songs on Wurdah Ïtah. You might hear one or two or these words appearing in the actual music--if you're lucky--with the notable exception of 'Iss' Lanseï Doïa where they actually try to sing in a more "normal" way. This also happens to be a song not written by Christian Vander. Just sayin'.

I personally think putting agendas and actual ideological messages into music is bad taste and cowardly. I doubt Vander would do such things. One of the reasons I've gotten so much into Magma is because in a way they feel like they're pursuing the same goal with music as I am: to tell stories through it. They want to tell a story, and maybe it becomes coloured by their own perception of it, but at the end of the day it's a story being told and all the possible "ideologies" in there are depicted as seen by observers. It's like a movie or a stage play in a way where the musicians and/or instruments are playing the parts.
And again, I want to say once more that if he would want the music to PROMOTE any sort of ideologies, he'd have done it in a language people would actually understand.

toroddfuglesteg wrote: Fascists........  I am really sorry that I have called anyone here fascists. 40footwolf, you have my unreserved apology. I was well out of order. Talking of rumors and my strong gut reactions towards anyone who distribute them:    I am not a snowy white innocent person when it comes to rumors either. In my youth, I put one band out of business by spreading rumors about their political beliefs. I had no business doing that and I acted despicable. It also caused other human beings a lot of hurt. I am deeply ashamed of what I did. Which explains my moral stance that we cannot react on rumors alone. Hence my over-reactions and my stepping over the line in this thread.      I cannot boycott Magma until clear facts is put on the table. And even then, I will have ethical problems boycotting them based on the fact that I am not boycotting the use of comfortable things in life based on the political views on the inventors of these (which was anti-semitics, based on their own admissions). I am middle aged and not as strong as I once was. Sorry.   Anyway, 40footwolf has my unreserved apologies and all the best wishes for this week and future.

Regrettably fascism is just a far too popular form of social political interaction - but I shan't get on my anti-PC crusade here. There's always someone out there in real world land who wants to impose his values on others. Can't be avoided just observed.

Magma have come under fire for apparently supporting Nazism. However this is not clear and far too many contradictions throughout Magma (never mind here) mean it is not absolutely possible for all to agree or ven decide on what to agree or not. No final solutions here (sic.)

There are those who cannot rely on what is unsupported rumour, or even if it is supported rumour then question (as they should) said support's validity.

We have veered off on tangents (boycotting, sales etc.) 

There are those who think it's all rubbish and Magma are pure as the driven slush (q. ZZ Top.)

Vander has been quoted in interviews, ex-band members have (in other fora) become involved. Motives there have been questioned.

At this stage I think nothing is certain; this topic is way too loaded and complex for anything but speculation.

What if Christian Vander clarified anything? Would it help? Would he be believed, depending on the content? Has he used the Nazi (ideal?) as a creative vehicle for the Kobaia idea. Perfectly valid idea IMHO, not sure that he has though, not specifically.

This subject is a dangerous one and frankly in most conversations most would shy away from it fearing guilt by association.

The music is usually fantastic, it is the artistic basis / intent that requires a non Kobaian and clear avowal or clarification. Can't see that happening.

So filtering artistic intent and result through music, poiltical innuendo, shades of truth / lies, versions of either and every single persons own perception of everything is going to result in a whole lotta nothing,

I think the only thing now is wait and see what next from Magma.

uduwudu wrote: I wasn't presenting this as evidence other than what it is, relatively unsubstantiated rumour. If Harmoium.ro says the opposite then we are at least no worse off than before.

Well, that story is placed after a concert, in a context to which I wouldn't have the access to. I thought your initial mention regards incidents happened during concerts. So I can't tell anything about it...

Accuse V. for anti-semitism is a thiing, but find subliminar meanings in the lyrics are way far... If you are tendencious and want to find hide quotes you can find allusion of nazi rhetoric even in Willie Nelso´s songs (lol) [rememember the wrong rumours about Iron Maiden? The reverse lyrics etc?]

But, anyway, is for reasons like this that i guive no matter to lyrics in prog music, for me lyrics are important for vocalizations and melody, but their semantic meaning are irrelevant, even for magnific instrumental bands like Magma.

toroddfuglesteg wrote:   40footwolf wrote:  Christian Vander could deny these claims at any point. He has not. I am sure Christian Vander has far better things to do in life than responding to unsubstantiated rumors made by people with their own agendas.

toroddfuglesteg wrote: Sorry, but I have to clear up a misunderstanding. As I said, I am refusing to purchase any pop albums based on the music and that is my consumer choice. Refusing to buy Magma albums based on dislikes is also consumer choice. Spreading unsubstantiated rumors about other human beings is not consumer choice. It is malicious behavior, it is a criminal offense in many countries and it is the origin of Holocaust (who was the final product of 1500 years of unsubstantiated rumors). It is also double standards where basic human rights is denied the victim of these unsubstantiated rumors. It is the fascism the victim is accused for promoting. Hence double standards. Hence the lack of respect for other human beings by the one who spread unsubstantiated rumors and his/her cries about "you know nothing about fascism" as a mean of getting the attention away from the facts in this matter. And I am not referring to ExittheLemming.   You simply does not go around and spread unsubstantiated rumors about other human  beings (and animals) in a forum like ProgArchives. What you are doing in this thread is comparable with this. That is the fact of the matter.  But feel free to boycott French cheese, Magma albums and Levis jeans as much as you want for whatever reason as long as you don't spread unsubstantiated rumors in public and you therefore act within the moral standards and laws of democratic civilized countries.  End of the matter.

uduwudu wrote:  copied from http://kohntarkosz.blogspot.com/2009/11/some-words-about-recent-controversy.html?showComment=1258323172978#c7524042885709485187 "Fact: After the last concert of the series of Magma concerts at Le Triton in June 2009, there was an incident between the wife of the owner of the club and Vander, where Vander said some extremely unpleasant things about Black people (cit: Helene C). I was not there, but this story has been confirmed by a number of people who were at the club and witnessed the incident."

Then let's hear statements from all of these witnesses. This is hardly strong evidence, just a single account which claims to be backed up by various other accounts, none of which are apparently available.

uduwudu wrote: The fact that Christian Vander had swastika flags all over his bedroom and pictures of Hitler and would leap up and do kind of imitation Hitler speeches in the middle of his drum solo didn't seem to faze him all that much.  It fazed everybody else.  But Giorgio just loved the music, and loved the cultural impact of the music. copied from http://www.richieunterberger.com/allen.html

I'm not sure I'd class the original Pot-Head Pixie as a reliable witness...