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DavetheSlave 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 23 2007
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 492
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 Posted: October 29 2011 at 12:50 |
I don't even want to start listing the sources that list O M as prog just as I don't want to start looking for sources that list Metallica as prog besides here. A conceptual album with an incredible story, changing rythm structures throughout, melody and an ambiance of its own as well as a score here of 4,22 from 437 ratings.
This aint a discussion I wanna be having because it doesn't make sense to me  .
Basic Metal music has a very simple structure and I seldom listen to it unless the Metal has musical reason behind it - virtuosity, melody, strong structure.
The Quadrophena album by the Who I don't like because it is too poppy for me but I won't argue that there isn't prog there.
Metallica are a heavy basic grunge, thrash band who wrote music that appealed to the masses a while back. I dunno who they appeal to now  .
Edited by DavetheSlave - October 29 2011 at 12:50
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: October 29 2011 at 12:19 |
 DavetheSlave wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
TheMasterMofo wrote:
The argument against would be that most of their music, though often experimental or changing, uses straight time signatures and has a common song structure.
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An argument that has never been held against Queensryche when it could just as well apply to them. Consider that Metallica are at any rate classified here as Prog Related (hence not prog) whereas Queensryche is Progressive Metal. I can certainly hear the influence of Operation Mindcrime on prog metal to come but I am not sure just how much it fits as prog on this website. I think it has much more to do with that, just like Led Zeppelin or The Who, Metallica have been marked down as metal for so long and are so popular that having to relate to them in prog terms seems awkward. Otherwise, musically, even if they may not be such a perfect fit as a King Crimson, they are more eligible than several other additions to the archives.
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Operation Mindcrime is a prog metal classic and is universally recognised as such. To put Metallica and Queensryche on the same page relating to prog, to me, is ludicrous.
I own many Metallica albums but if they were stolen it wouldn't worry me in the least. Having said that Lulu does intrigue me after having listened to some of it  .
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Universally recognized on what basis? And you are wrong, it depends on the community of music listeners you talk to. For pure metal lovers, OM is more of a heavy metal classic because they don't care about prog metal or OM's impact on it. Queensryche is a heavy metal band that went proggy as opposed to DT who were prog metal from the get go. And if you bothered to actually listen to the music than go by these dubious consenses, perhaps the suggestion would sound less ludicrous to you. Why on earth is Quadrophenia not prog if Salisbury is supposed to be? These are just labels, and a lot of rock labels are not accurate at all. It doesn't matter, either.
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DavetheSlave
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 23 2007
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 492
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Posted: October 29 2011 at 12:14 |
rogerthat wrote:
TheMasterMofo wrote:
The argument against would be that most of their music, though often experimental or changing, uses straight time signatures and has a common song structure.
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An argument that has never been held against Queensryche when it could just as well apply to them. Consider that Metallica are at any rate classified here as Prog Related (hence not prog) whereas Queensryche is Progressive Metal. I can certainly hear the influence of Operation Mindcrime on prog metal to come but I am not sure just how much it fits as prog on this website. I think it has much more to do with that, just like Led Zeppelin or The Who, Metallica have been marked down as metal for so long and are so popular that having to relate to them in prog terms seems awkward. Otherwise, musically, even if they may not be such a perfect fit as a King Crimson, they are more eligible than several other additions to the archives.
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Operation Mindcrime is a prog metal classic and is universally recognised as such. To put Metallica and Queensryche on the same page relating to prog, to me, is ludicrous.
I own many Metallica albums but if they were stolen it wouldn't worry me in the least. Having said that Lulu does intrigue me after having listened to some of it .
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: October 29 2011 at 10:40 |
TheMasterMofo wrote:
The argument against would be that most of their music, though often
experimental or changing, uses straight time signatures and has a common
song structure.
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An argument that has never been held against Queensryche when it could just as well apply to them. Consider that Metallica are at any rate classified here as Prog Related (hence not prog) whereas Queensryche is Progressive Metal. I can certainly hear the influence of Operation Mindcrime on prog metal to come but I am not sure just how much it fits as prog on this website. I think it has much more to do with that, just like Led Zeppelin or The Who, Metallica have been marked down as metal for so long and are so popular that having to relate to them in prog terms seems awkward. Otherwise, musically, even if they may not be such a perfect fit as a King Crimson, they are more eligible than several other additions to the archives.
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TheMasterMofo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 20 2009
Location: Georgia
Status: Offline
Points: 220
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Posted: October 29 2011 at 09:56 |
Horizons wrote:
Because they shouldn't be. |
I can see the argument for them to be on the site and the argument against...
The argument for would be that Metallica has always been changing their
approach to music; they more or less made thrash metal popular in the
mainstream, made heavy metal/rock popular in the mainstream, and tried
several very unique approaches to recording music. "And Justice For All"
has a lot of time signature and tempo changes.
The argument against would be that most of their music, though often
experimental or changing, uses straight time signatures and has a common
song structure. Their time signature explorations were also often
accidental rather than deliberate, but I'm not sure if that's a knock
against their musical knowledge or a compliment for their creativity. I've always seen Metallica as the ultimate pioneer of metal, I just didn't think they'd be listed here.
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harmonium.ro
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 18 2008
Location: Anna Calvi
Status: Offline
Points: 22989
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Posted: October 29 2011 at 09:29 |
Deathrabbit wrote:
Horizons wrote:
Because they shouldn't be. |
One of the more retarded additions. |
One of the more retarded posts. Watch it.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: October 29 2011 at 00:26 |
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Old Metallica is as much prog as Strawbs, Heep, most of Renaissance mk-2 and loads of other stuff from the 70s largely accepted as prog. Unfortunately, they are punkish and aggressive rather than 'sophisticated' and 'technical', not a good thing at all, ya know.
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Alitare
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 08 2008
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 3595
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Posted: October 28 2011 at 20:02 |
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^Yeah, like Nightwish, Savatage, Black Sabbath, most power prog, and Lady Ga Ga.
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Failcore
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 27 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 4625
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Posted: October 28 2011 at 19:48 |
Horizons wrote:
Because they shouldn't be. |
One of the more retarded additions.
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: October 28 2011 at 19:41 |
Any Colour You Like wrote:
Metallica are on PA. |
But not for Lulu.
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
Status: Offline
Points: 16715
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Posted: October 28 2011 at 19:40 |
This is a somewhat interesting post I read about it
| this album is obviously terrible and thus fascinating. the best description i've seen for it was someone (dilloway?) calling it "outsider art." which makes sense if you think of the life experiences of metallica dudes and lou - completely, utterly outside any kind of normal, relatable, human life experience for the last however many years. |
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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Horizons
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: January 20 2011
Location: Somewhere Else
Status: Offline
Points: 16952
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Posted: October 28 2011 at 19:32 |
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Because they shouldn't be.
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Crushed like a rose in the riverflow.
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TheMasterMofo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 20 2009
Location: Georgia
Status: Offline
Points: 220
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Posted: October 28 2011 at 17:03 |
Any Colour You Like wrote:
Metallica are on PA. |
Wow, I've been coming to this site for years and never even noticed that...
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Any Colour You Like
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 15 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 12294
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Posted: October 28 2011 at 16:49 |
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Metallica are on PA.
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TheMasterMofo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 20 2009
Location: Georgia
Status: Offline
Points: 220
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Posted: October 28 2011 at 16:41 |
zappaholic wrote:
TheMasterMofo wrote:
I'm terrified to actually listen to "Lulu" because I've been a Metallica fan since I was 10 years old, started playing guitar because of James Hetfield and Kirk Hammett, and I'm pretty positive that this album will be absolutely horrible. St. Anger wasn't good as an album, but it at least had a few redeemable qualities.
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To me, Metallica ceased to exist when Newsted left (I know, for most people the dividing line was Cliff's death). The people calling themselves Metallica now are impostors.
And with the possible exception of New York, Reed hasn't done anything to merit my attention in many, many years.
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Newstead was definitely my favorite Metallica bassist of all time; My Friend of Misery has one of the coolest sounds ever. The whole atmosphere of that song is something special that's always stood out since the first time I ever heard it. Rob is a pretty talented bassist, and a good performer, but not the writer that Newstead was. I really enjoyed Death Magnetic though; it was a really strong album in all regards IMO. The whole concept for Lulu just scares me as it seems so foreign. Maybe it will allow Metallica to make their way on PA!!
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Kotro
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 16 2004
Location: Portugal
Status: Offline
Points: 2815
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Posted: October 28 2011 at 07:46 |
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Got to hear Lulu via streaming twice now (second time on headphones), and I have to say I really don't understand the hatred. It's no masterpiece (and that is more because of lenght than content), but it's hardly a bad album. It has great tracks and it has lesser tracks, like your average record. I could do without James Hetfield, but apart from that, not much to point out. Personally it's the best album I've heard featuring Metallica, and I will definitly be listening to it again.
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Bigger on the inside.
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Any Colour You Like
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 15 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 12294
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Posted: October 28 2011 at 00:14 |
Drew wrote:
The new Blackfield
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It's pretty mediocre, but it's hardly prog. It's still good pop rock.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: October 27 2011 at 22:13 |
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I'd like to add...in the absence of any sense of intrinsic value, money eventually becomes the measuring rod of worth and that in turn is decided by the marketplace and what it seeks to pay for something. And the marketplace is not always fair or correct but it votes with its feet.
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Alitare
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 08 2008
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 3595
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Posted: October 27 2011 at 22:09 |
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I like that last post some.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: October 27 2011 at 22:06 |
dtd350 wrote:
Let the bands make the music THEY want to do and some people will like it and some people will not...who cares. |
If nobody cared, they wouldn't buy flight tickets to travel a thousand miles or so to catch Metallica. They wouldn't scream their throats out the way we did when we saw Iron Maiden for the first time. If I didn't care, I wouldn't have gone into such a wild state of ecstasy after a performance of Beethoven's Ninth as to walk over to a nearby sea facing promenade and embrace the breeze with outstretched arms. People do care, and some care a lot. If they didn't, artistic engagement loses all meaning and relevance, like this Lulu album. Post modernism is a highly destructive illusion and I wish people would pay no heed to these bookish philosophers and just pursue what they believe in with zest because it's nothing to be ashamed of.
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