Do you think that life is fair? |
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The T
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
Posted: April 24 2012 at 19:16 | ||
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 24 2012 at 19:49 | ||
^ life is exactly like that at times.
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RoyFairbank
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 07 2008 Location: Somewhere Status: Offline Points: 1072 |
Posted: April 25 2012 at 13:23 | ||
If disparity doesn't equal unfairness, then unfairness does not exist, and people's perception of it cannot be explained. The reason something is unfair is that it is out of sync with what one could do or wouldn't have to do. Its only not unfair when there is no possibility of either option. A poor man may perceive others, and conclude that he could be rich, therefore it is unfair that he isn't when they are. A man who lost a son in a war sees others with their sons, and may conclude that it is unfair he doesn't have his son If there was no wealth disparity, there would be no unfairness about wealth If the man hadn't lost his son, he couldn't feel that was unfair he was missing his while others had one. If the serf felt there was no way for him to be a modern man, then there is no disparity, and no unfairness If he perceives that he can step through that time portal and live a different life, he may feel unfairness. Edited by RoyFairbank - April 25 2012 at 13:23 |
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Guldbamsen
Special Collaborator Retired Admin Joined: January 22 2009 Location: Magic Theatre Status: Offline Points: 23098 |
Posted: April 25 2012 at 13:38 | ||
Ritalin and coffee don't necessarily make for the best match Although that post gave me quite the chuckle earlier today. Nice one Dean.
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 25 2012 at 13:42 | ||
You are assuming that the disparity between medieval serf and a modern man is negative from his perspective. He could look at your life and see it completely differently from how you perceive it. Truth is we do not know exactly how medieval people lived - their lives were not documented, we make assumptions. What we do know is that after the industrial revolution the lives of working people got incredibly worse - conditions got worse, renumeration (pay or payment in kind) got worse, life expectancy got worse, the number of hours they were expected to work increased significantly, their free-time decreased and their relative freedom decreased (the industrial age created a different kind of serfdom, one the vast majority of us are still tithed to) - our current situation is arguably better than the early industrial working-classes (though most of us still toil long hours for a wage that is disparate to that of our employers)... we still work longer hours and have fewer holidays than our medieval ancestors (where every holy day was a holiday). We measure our lives by achievement and possessions - medieval serfs would not comprehend that concept. Edited by Dean - April 25 2012 at 14:09 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 25 2012 at 13:54 | ||
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5130 |
Posted: April 25 2012 at 13:58 | ||
Fairness is a purely human construct, there's no way life could be fair or unfair unless you are a theist.
And BTW, this is one of the basic points where theism is attacked and yet theists do not seem to have a way out other than saying that justice (read "fairness") will come in the afterlife.
The laws of nature are quasi-deterministic and weirdly living things appear to have some degree of freewill, and as such it seems that there's quite a lot we can do to command our own future.
But there is always unpredictability, arising from either the complexity of life (chaos theory) or from the fundamental randomness of the universe (quantum theory).
On top we have the element of human perception, that your son gets killed in an accident is simply a normal happening of nature, people die and some of them do so in accidents, but because it's your son and you have been leading a honest life you may perceive it as unfair.
A certain event may look fair for some and unfair for others, don't want to elaborate but just think of some event as seen by a radical jew and by a radical palestinian...
So life is neither fair or unfair, life goes its way, it's just that certain humans may perceive the event as fair or as unfair.
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Guldbamsen
Special Collaborator Retired Admin Joined: January 22 2009 Location: Magic Theatre Status: Offline Points: 23098 |
Posted: April 25 2012 at 13:58 | ||
Looks delicious, and quite bizarrely we seem to be back at the chocolate once again. What was that Gump's mother once said about 'em?
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams |
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15783 |
Posted: April 25 2012 at 14:01 | ||
Fairness doesn't exist, yet humans exhibits an incredibly strong of inner sense of what it is. I'd say that it exists. Does poetic justice similarly not exist? I see the point you're getting at, and I agree to an extent, but it's false how you've stated it. I have blue eyes and you have brown eyes, nobody is really going to say that's unfair. I answer a question on a test, and it gets marked wrong. You answer a question identically on a test, but the teacher marks it right because he wants to get into your pants. Most people are going to say that's unfair. Disparate =/= unfairness. You could say it's a necessary condition for unfairness, but the equality wouldn't hold. |
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: April 25 2012 at 15:08 | ||
eh kindanotreallysorta
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 08 2009 Status: Offline Points: 3281 |
Posted: April 25 2012 at 15:51 | ||
A theist could say that life isn't fair, but the afterlife is.
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 25 2012 at 16:04 | ||
So could an atheist or a well trained parrot. |
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32491 |
Posted: April 25 2012 at 16:06 | ||
Fairness / unfairness exists, but it is limited to context. If I am playing Monopoly and I am the banker and I am sneaking fifties into my stash, then the game is unfair. But it does not follow from my cheating that "life" is (or could be) fair or unfair. |
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32491 |
Posted: April 25 2012 at 16:07 | ||
Or a theist might not believe in any afterlife. |
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 08 2009 Status: Offline Points: 3281 |
Posted: April 25 2012 at 16:17 | ||
Epig: Yes, yes, we sometimes use words in a general sense that doesn't encompass all possible inclusions, very good, you make this point quite regularly.Dean: You gotta let this hard-on you have for me go. This thing you're doing following me around and picking on all my posts... it's just not fair.
Edited by Textbook - April 25 2012 at 16:18 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 25 2012 at 16:49 | ||
Only until someone better turns up. I am that fickle and you're not that good.
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RoyFairbank
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 07 2008 Location: Somewhere Status: Offline Points: 1072 |
Posted: April 25 2012 at 16:57 | ||
What is life? Are we talking about an unreachable abstraction?
There is life as a human in human society, and "life".... abstract existence.... Abstract existence as an abstraction intrinsically has no meaning, so of course it can neither be fair or unfair.... Concrete life, as a certain human being in a certain human society, is a different matter.... As has been said, it would then be a subjective matter, I would add, based on perceived disparity.... If the disparity is not percieved... then it would not be unfair. The serf in the example may or may not perceive disparity, as I said, he may see his life as superior... it is really irrelevant. If he does happen to perceive a negative disparity, he is sensing unfairness. On the other hand, if he thought his lifestyle was superior, then perhaps he would sense a disparity in his favor, unfairness in his favor. So unfairness does not have to be negative or positive, or one or the other. As for the understanding about disparity and unfairness, it is borne out even by the dictionary definition: disproportionate; undue; beyond what is proper or fitting: an unfair share. |
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15783 |
Posted: April 25 2012 at 17:21 | ||
I can give you 1000 examples to demonstrate that there's no equality of concepts. I could probably do a literature search that reveals the same thing has been shown experimentally. It's just unrealistic to say that they represent the same thing.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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RoyFairbank
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 07 2008 Location: Somewhere Status: Offline Points: 1072 |
Posted: April 25 2012 at 18:53 | ||
There is some type of disparity in every example of unfairness, I think you are being to restrictive in your understanding of disparity, and too abstract about unfairness. If it is not based on the cognition of differences, what is it based on? As I have pointed out, unfairness is not necessarily negative or positive. It is not some abstract state of negativity, but the product of you or something being in a certain real position vis a vis potential selfs, situations, or similar others/objects which allows an understanding of being unallowed to fulfill said potential, or being allowed to do so while others/or different objects do not fulfill potential in relation to self, situation or object. The range of things and situations covered by this is immense, and not limited to any one example or simply "jealousy." Unfairness is the subjective side of Disparity, its objective side. Unfairness should not be abstracted into just a negative feeling, which renders it incomprehensible. Anything "bad" (abstraction) is "unfair" (abstraction) and life (abstract existence) is not "good" (abstraction) or "bad" (abstraction), so it is not "unfair" (abstraction) ... what does that even mean? This is idealistic analysis divorced from any materialistic analysis, but best not to get into that again. Edited by RoyFairbank - April 25 2012 at 18:56 |
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 08 2009 Status: Offline Points: 3281 |
Posted: April 25 2012 at 19:04 | ||
Dean: So if you're with me until someone better turns up, that implies that I'm currently the best. I am the best* on the forum. I WIN. *The best at being annoying, apparently, but STILL THE BEST.
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