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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2012 at 10:46

Like moral crimes. The kind of crimes that are only crimes by the laws our government made up. Many are understandable but in the end they're kind of the reason why we have such a prison system with so many inmates.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2012 at 10:54
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Okay - so those are not really crimes against society in the literal sense then.


Can I ask what the literal sense would be? I'm drawing a blank besides like vandalizing someone's dictionary directly over the entry on "society".
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2012 at 23:23
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:


Something has to be infinite in order for anything to matter.  If there is no infinite, then nothing matters.  The finality of death wipes out meaning; it makes human existence amount to no more than a dream.  If there is no infinite, we are all essentially dead men walking; condemned to death, all of our actions are as superficial and as insignificant as are the last days of a prisoner on death row.


Do you wish to justify anything, or shall we just be taking your word as sacrosanct? I could argue that over an infinitude of time, possibilities will be exhausted so that actions become devoid of meaning as they all will inevitably occur. It's only the reality of an end which breathes meaning into actions by reducing the infinite set of probabilities to a finite set of determined choice. [QUOTE]

I'm not trying to justify anything at all, just to point out the inherent implications of a philosophy without God.  When I say "the infinite" I mean an infinite being, not merely a world that goes on forever.  Sorry if I didn't make that clear.  But the reality of an end does not give life any meaning at all; if there's no God/infinite being/force, our choices are just as meaningless if they come from a finite set as if they come from an infinite set.

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

[quote=Ambient Hurricanes]
However, if there is an infinite being or force that is intrinsically good and true and beautiful, then we have something to live for because there is something beyond ourselves, something that is changeless and not transient, whose existence is not a mere dream ended by death but goes on forever.  As a Christian, I believe that the infinite does exist; He is God, the Father of his Son Jesus Christ (who is one with the Father), who send Jesus to the earth in order that He might save us from our sin and separation from Himself.  If this is untrue, then I say (with the apostle Paul) "let us eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die," and the next day our society will die, and the next all of the human race, and the next our entire universe.  But Christ invites us to believe and to live eternally with Himself, who fulfills all our longings and saves us from sin and death.


That's going to happen anyway regardless of existence of heaven or not. You may as well come to accept that.



I do, but Jesus promises eternal life to those who believe; they will live beyond their own earthly death and that of the human race and our universe.  The point is that, if death is the end, then the death of all things in existence renders existence meaningless.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2012 at 23:37
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:


Originally posted by 1 Peter 3:21 1 Peter 3:21 wrote:

Baptism, which corresponds to this [the salvation of Noah and his family] now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by Titus 3: 5-8 Titus 3: 5-8 wrote:

We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead to the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

These two verses, in my opinion, definitely attach the promise of salvation to baptism.  Salvation is accomplished by grace and through faith, and baptism is a means of grace by which God grants salvation to us.  It can't be seen as a work of man, but as a work of God.  The Lutheran doctrine states that baptism actually creates faith; because, since Scripture says that baptism saves and that one must have faith to be saved, the promise of faith must also be attached to baptism.



In order to translate Koine Greek into proper, modern English, a translator will inevitably create nuances that may not be in the original language.  The Greek word "dia," which appears in verse 20 and provides the context for verse 21 is especially troubling, because it is a preposition that can mean many different things.  This passage could say "saved by water" or "saved with water" or "saved through[out] water," etc.

Indeed, Young's literal translation puts it this way:

Quote
who sometime disbelieved, when once the long-suffering of God did wait, in days of Noah -- an ark being preparing -- in which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water; also to which an antitype doth now save us -- baptism, (not a putting away of the filth of flesh, but the question of a good conscience in regard to God,) through the rising again of Jesus Christ,


The antitype Peter explores is Noah.  So was Noah saved by the flood?  Certainly not.  Was Noah saved with the flood?  No.  Was Noah saved through[out] the flood?  Yes, we can say that.  Now baptism is a symbol of death (being buried, as the verse in Titus shows).  Are believers saved by death?  No.  Are believers saved from death? No- all will experience death.  But are believers saved through[out] death?  Yes.

I promise I'm not mincing words here- a pesky preposition can alter the meaning under of a text considerably.  Wink

By the way, in Acts 10, Peter encounters a bunch of Gentile believers who were filled with the Holy Spirit- but they had not been baptized. 



My translation (ESV) says "through" also, but even in Young's translation, it says that baptism (the antitype) "doth now save you."  The point is that baptism saves, whether that may happen "by" or "through" the actual water.  This quote from Luther's Small Catechism may help to explain where I'm coming from:

Originally posted by Martin Luther Martin Luther wrote:

How can water do such great things?

Certainly not just water, but the Word of God in and with the water does these things, along with the faith which trusts the Word of God in the water.  For without God's Word, the water is plain water and no baptism, but with the Word of God it is a baptism, that is, a life-giving water, rich in grace, and a washing of rebirth in the Holy Spirit, as St. Paul writes in Romans chapter 6...

And thus follows the passage which I mistakenly quoted as Titus 3:5-8. Confused

As far as your other responses go, well, I don't have much to say in return at the moment, as I haven't really studied these things as much as you have.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 26 2012 at 00:07
Originally posted by Smurph Smurph wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Yes. I especially hate it when people get thrown into prison for "crimes against society."
What is a crime against society?
 
Anything to do with Kanye West.
 
 
And actually insane ramblings are normally very interesting to read. :-D


Lol, that's a winning comment.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 26 2012 at 06:57
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:


Originally posted by 1 Peter 3:21 1 Peter 3:21 wrote:

Baptism, which corresponds to this [the salvation of Noah and his family] now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by Titus 3: 5-8 Titus 3: 5-8 wrote:

We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead to the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

These two verses, in my opinion, definitely attach the promise of salvation to baptism.  Salvation is accomplished by grace and through faith, and baptism is a means of grace by which God grants salvation to us.  It can't be seen as a work of man, but as a work of God.  The Lutheran doctrine states that baptism actually creates faith; because, since Scripture says that baptism saves and that one must have faith to be saved, the promise of faith must also be attached to baptism.



In order to translate Koine Greek into proper, modern English, a translator will inevitably create nuances that may not be in the original language.  The Greek word "dia," which appears in verse 20 and provides the context for verse 21 is especially troubling, because it is a preposition that can mean many different things.  This passage could say "saved by water" or "saved with water" or "saved through[out] water," etc.

Indeed, Young's literal translation puts it this way:

Quote
who sometime disbelieved, when once the long-suffering of God did wait, in days of Noah -- an ark being preparing -- in which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water; also to which an antitype doth now save us -- baptism, (not a putting away of the filth of flesh, but the question of a good conscience in regard to God,) through the rising again of Jesus Christ,


The antitype Peter explores is Noah.  So was Noah saved by the flood?  Certainly not.  Was Noah saved with the flood?  No.  Was Noah saved through[out] the flood?  Yes, we can say that.  Now baptism is a symbol of death (being buried, as the verse in Titus shows).  Are believers saved by death?  No.  Are believers saved from death? No- all will experience death.  But are believers saved through[out] death?  Yes.

I promise I'm not mincing words here- a pesky preposition can alter the meaning under of a text considerably.  Wink

By the way, in Acts 10, Peter encounters a bunch of Gentile believers who were filled with the Holy Spirit- but they had not been baptized. 



My translation (ESV) says "through" also, but even in Young's translation, it says that baptism (the antitype) "doth now save you."  The point is that baptism saves, whether that may happen "by" or "through" the actual water.  This quote from Luther's Small Catechism may help to explain where I'm coming from:

Originally posted by Martin Luther Martin Luther wrote:

How can water do such great things?

Certainly not just water, but the Word of God in and with the water does these things, along with the faith which trusts the Word of God in the water.  For without God's Word, the water is plain water and no baptism, but with the Word of God it is a baptism, that is, a life-giving water, rich in grace, and a washing of rebirth in the Holy Spirit, as St. Paul writes in Romans chapter 6...

And thus follows the passage which I mistakenly quoted as Titus 3:5-8. Confused

As far as your other responses go, well, I don't have much to say in return at the moment, as I haven't really studied these things as much as you have.



I believe you are still misreading Peter's words.  Peter says baptism does not work by cleansing you [it does not engender righteousness or make you clean before God], but by demonstrating a clear conscience to God [you are acting in obedience].  Baptism is an act of obedience, but we both know that an act of obedience does not literally save anyone- it only demonstrates an obedient heart that loves Jesus (John 14:15).  This squares with what Matthew says.  Matthew 3 tells us that baptism fulfills righteousness

But even if I were to agree with you, I would have to ask: How then do you differentiate a literal text from synecdoche? 

By your reading, if I get dunked in some water, I'm saved ("The point is that baptism saves...").  That's all it takes.  But I'm sure you would agree that there is more to it.  Consider this example:

You: "Hey man, how did you make it to my party so soon?"
Me: "I have a great set of wheels."

Did I make it to your party soon because I literally had four wheels and that is all?  No.  Four wheels do nothing alone to transport anyone.  But you know by my figurative language that I'm talking about a whole car.

Similarly, baptism is an element of the Christian narrative.  Peter didn't mention repentance or faith.  John in 1 John 5:1 didn't mention baptism or repentance.  Paul in Romans 10:9-10 didn't mention obedience or baptism.  The authors in the Bible could speak as they did because their audience already had a fundamental understanding of salvation.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2012 at 00:11
Could anyone help me find a

Allan Oxford Ruby Highland Goatskin

bible? Seems like the carry-around bible. But it seems the only locale to buy this ditty is this website: http://evangelicalbible.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=12_115&products_id=442&zenid=484eba9eeee093d04d4a53b651dc40f7
They only have it for pre-order. I don't mind the decently steep price, but if anyone could guide me to a better website where I could buy this as soon as possible, I'd be most grateful. I've been searching forever and... No luck!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2012 at 07:01
From what I can tell, the link you gave has it for sale now, not pre-order.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2012 at 11:40
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:



I do, but Jesus promises eternal life to those who believe; they will live beyond their own earthly death and that of the human race and our universe.  The point is that, if death is the end, then the death of all things in existence renders existence meaningless.


Do you intend on justifying that in any way?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2012 at 14:23
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:



I do, but Jesus promises eternal life to those who believe; they will live beyond their own earthly death and that of the human race and our universe.  The point is that, if death is the end, then the death of all things in existence renders existence meaningless.


Do you intend on justifying that in any way?

I think I already did above but I'll go for it again.  In a universe without God or the supernatural, when a person dies, their consciousness is wiped out.  None of what they did in life has any significance any more, because it has ended in death.  When someone has a dream, no matter how remarkable the dream is, it has no effect on the person if their memory of the dream is gone.  If death is the end, life is merely a forgotten dream.  The end of something, it's final goal and outcome, it what determines its significance.  Even if we accept the saying that "the journey is what matters, not the destination," we can still say that the significance is in the final outcome, because the final outcome of the journey is not the destination, but the experiences and lessons learned from the journey.  The final outcome of life is death.  Since life cannot be remembered after death, the experiences and lessons of life no longer have any significance.  Neither do they have significance to the lives of others, because they will all die also.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2012 at 14:39
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

From what I can tell, the link you gave has it for sale now, not pre-order.

It says "PREORDER" at the top and says "back in stock October 2012". I really wouldn't want to wait that long. But if I must, I shall!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2012 at 14:42
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:


Originally posted by 1 Peter 3:21 1 Peter 3:21 wrote:

Baptism, which corresponds to this [the salvation of Noah and his family] now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by Titus 3: 5-8 Titus 3: 5-8 wrote:

We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead to the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

These two verses, in my opinion, definitely attach the promise of salvation to baptism.  Salvation is accomplished by grace and through faith, and baptism is a means of grace by which God grants salvation to us.  It can't be seen as a work of man, but as a work of God.  The Lutheran doctrine states that baptism actually creates faith; because, since Scripture says that baptism saves and that one must have faith to be saved, the promise of faith must also be attached to baptism.



In order to translate Koine Greek into proper, modern English, a translator will inevitably create nuances that may not be in the original language.  The Greek word "dia," which appears in verse 20 and provides the context for verse 21 is especially troubling, because it is a preposition that can mean many different things.  This passage could say "saved by water" or "saved with water" or "saved through[out] water," etc.

Indeed, Young's literal translation puts it this way:

Quote
who sometime disbelieved, when once the long-suffering of God did wait, in days of Noah -- an ark being preparing -- in which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water; also to which an antitype doth now save us -- baptism, (not a putting away of the filth of flesh, but the question of a good conscience in regard to God,) through the rising again of Jesus Christ,


The antitype Peter explores is Noah.  So was Noah saved by the flood?  Certainly not.  Was Noah saved with the flood?  No.  Was Noah saved through[out] the flood?  Yes, we can say that.  Now baptism is a symbol of death (being buried, as the verse in Titus shows).  Are believers saved by death?  No.  Are believers saved from death? No- all will experience death.  But are believers saved through[out] death?  Yes.

I promise I'm not mincing words here- a pesky preposition can alter the meaning under of a text considerably.  Wink

By the way, in Acts 10, Peter encounters a bunch of Gentile believers who were filled with the Holy Spirit- but they had not been baptized. 



My translation (ESV) says "through" also, but even in Young's translation, it says that baptism (the antitype) "doth now save you."  The point is that baptism saves, whether that may happen "by" or "through" the actual water.  This quote from Luther's Small Catechism may help to explain where I'm coming from:

Originally posted by Martin Luther Martin Luther wrote:

How can water do such great things?

Certainly not just water, but the Word of God in and with the water does these things, along with the faith which trusts the Word of God in the water.  For without God's Word, the water is plain water and no baptism, but with the Word of God it is a baptism, that is, a life-giving water, rich in grace, and a washing of rebirth in the Holy Spirit, as St. Paul writes in Romans chapter 6...

And thus follows the passage which I mistakenly quoted as Titus 3:5-8. Confused

As far as your other responses go, well, I don't have much to say in return at the moment, as I haven't really studied these things as much as you have.



I believe you are still misreading Peter's words.  Peter says baptism does not work by cleansing you [it does not engender righteousness or make you clean before God], but by demonstrating a clear conscience to God [you are acting in obedience].  Baptism is an act of obedience, but we both know that an act of obedience does not literally save anyone- it only demonstrates an obedient heart that loves Jesus (John 14:15).  This squares with what Matthew says.  Matthew 3 tells us that baptism fulfills righteousness

But even if I were to agree with you, I would have to ask: How then do you differentiate a literal text from synecdoche? 

By your reading, if I get dunked in some water, I'm saved ("The point is that baptism saves...").  That's all it takes.  But I'm sure you would agree that there is more to it.  Consider this example:

You: "Hey man, how did you make it to my party so soon?"
Me: "I have a great set of wheels."

Did I make it to your party soon because I literally had four wheels and that is all?  No.  Four wheels do nothing alone to transport anyone.  But you know by my figurative language that I'm talking about a whole car.

Similarly, baptism is an element of the Christian narrative.  Peter didn't mention repentance or faith.  John in 1 John 5:1 didn't mention baptism or repentance.  Paul in Romans 10:9-10 didn't mention obedience or baptism.  The authors in the Bible could speak as they did because their audience already had a fundamental understanding of salvation.

Sorry for the late (really late) reply to this, Rob, I got kind of busy in the days following this discussion.

The literal translation says that baptism is "a question of a good conscience in regard to God," leaving it ambiguous whether it is a demonstration of a good conscience, or a request for one.  The ESV translates it as "an appeal to God for a clear conscience," not that the statement must be understood that way, but it shows that the clause could be interpreted differently.  Before that, when Peter says that baptism is "not a putting away of the filth of flesh," he doesn't imply that baptism doesn't cleanse spiritually, but that it's not a mere physical cleansing.  Baptism is indeed an act of obedience, but so is faith, and I think we would both agree that we are saved through faith.  On the human level, both faith and baptism appear to be human acts and choices, but faith is a gift of God, and humans cannot choose God for themselves.  Likewise, the true work of baptism is not accomplished by man, but by God, who saves by water and the word.

That brings me to your next point, that the passage could be taken as synecdoche.  First of all, I don't mean to say that a mere dunking in water can save someone.  Baptism is more than plain water; as I pointed out with my Luther quote above, "it is the water included in God's command and combined with God's word.  Without the word of God, the water is plain water and no baptism."  God has many ways of imparting grace to his children; he gives grace through his Word, confession and absolution, the Lord's Supper, and Baptism.  Yes, they're all elements of the same Christian narrative, but they also are all means of grace, which give grace to us in different ways. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2012 at 15:09
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:



I do, but Jesus promises eternal life to those who believe; they will live beyond their own earthly death and that of the human race and our universe.  The point is that, if death is the end, then the death of all things in existence renders existence meaningless.


Do you intend on justifying that in any way?

I think I already did above but I'll go for it again.  In a universe without God or the supernatural, when a person dies, their consciousness is wiped out.  None of what they did in life has any significance any more, because it has ended in death.  When someone has a dream, no matter how remarkable the dream is, it has no effect on the person if their memory of the dream is gone.  If death is the end, life is merely a forgotten dream.  The end of something, it's final goal and outcome, it what determines its significance.  Even if we accept the saying that "the journey is what matters, not the destination," we can still say that the significance is in the final outcome, because the final outcome of the journey is not the destination, but the experiences and lessons learned from the journey.  The final outcome of life is death.  Since life cannot be remembered after death, the experiences and lessons of life no longer have any significance.  Neither do they have significance to the lives of others, because they will all die also.
This is perplexing.  The life lived by one who has died certainly affects, or at least can affect, those who are still living, and even those who have yet to live.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2012 at 15:44
Originally posted by infocat infocat wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:



I do, but Jesus promises eternal life to those who believe; they will live beyond their own earthly death and that of the human race and our universe.  The point is that, if death is the end, then the death of all things in existence renders existence meaningless.


Do you intend on justifying that in any way?

I think I already did above but I'll go for it again.  In a universe without God or the supernatural, when a person dies, their consciousness is wiped out.  None of what they did in life has any significance any more, because it has ended in death.  When someone has a dream, no matter how remarkable the dream is, it has no effect on the person if their memory of the dream is gone.  If death is the end, life is merely a forgotten dream.  The end of something, it's final goal and outcome, it what determines its significance.  Even if we accept the saying that "the journey is what matters, not the destination," we can still say that the significance is in the final outcome, because the final outcome of the journey is not the destination, but the experiences and lessons learned from the journey.  The final outcome of life is death.  Since life cannot be remembered after death, the experiences and lessons of life no longer have any significance.  Neither do they have significance to the lives of others, because they will all die also.
This is perplexing.  The life lived by one who has died certainly affects, or at least can affect, those who are still living, and even those who have yet to live.

Yes, they would affect the lives of others, but still would lack significance because the lives of others would be meaningless as well.


Edited by Ambient Hurricanes - August 12 2012 at 15:44
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2012 at 15:58
Originally posted by Raccoon Raccoon wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

From what I can tell, the link you gave has it for sale now, not pre-order.

It says "PREORDER" at the top and says "back in stock October 2012". I really wouldn't want to wait that long. But if I must, I shall!


Well that was a  reading fail.  LOL Embarrassed

I did see that and interpreted it as "We have it back in stock now."  (I think I'm living in 2013 or something).  Embarrassed
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2012 at 16:04
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

Originally posted by infocat infocat wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:



I do, but Jesus promises eternal life to those who believe; they will live beyond their own earthly death and that of the human race and our universe.  The point is that, if death is the end, then the death of all things in existence renders existence meaningless.


Do you intend on justifying that in any way?

I think I already did above but I'll go for it again.  In a universe without God or the supernatural, when a person dies, their consciousness is wiped out.  None of what they did in life has any significance any more, because it has ended in death.  When someone has a dream, no matter how remarkable the dream is, it has no effect on the person if their memory of the dream is gone.  If death is the end, life is merely a forgotten dream.  The end of something, it's final goal and outcome, it what determines its significance.  Even if we accept the saying that "the journey is what matters, not the destination," we can still say that the significance is in the final outcome, because the final outcome of the journey is not the destination, but the experiences and lessons learned from the journey.  The final outcome of life is death.  Since life cannot be remembered after death, the experiences and lessons of life no longer have any significance.  Neither do they have significance to the lives of others, because they will all die also.
This is perplexing.  The life lived by one who has died certainly affects, or at least can affect, those who are still living, and even those who have yet to live.

Yes, they would affect the lives of others, but still would lack significance because the lives of others would be meaningless as well.


This would imply that only that which has consciousness is significant.

Fire isn't even a conscious thing and it can leave you homeless, disfigured, or dead.

Or would you say that all the non-Christians who died in the Revolutionary War were insignificant existences?

Suppose a non-Christian does something that inadvertently leads to ten other people to become Christians.  Would the life of that non-Christian then still lack significance?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2012 at 16:31
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:


Originally posted by 1 Peter 3:21 1 Peter 3:21 wrote:

Baptism, which corresponds to this [the salvation of Noah and his family] now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by Titus 3: 5-8 Titus 3: 5-8 wrote:

We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead to the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

These two verses, in my opinion, definitely attach the promise of salvation to baptism.  Salvation is accomplished by grace and through faith, and baptism is a means of grace by which God grants salvation to us.  It can't be seen as a work of man, but as a work of God.  The Lutheran doctrine states that baptism actually creates faith; because, since Scripture says that baptism saves and that one must have faith to be saved, the promise of faith must also be attached to baptism.



In order to translate Koine Greek into proper, modern English, a translator will inevitably create nuances that may not be in the original language.  The Greek word "dia," which appears in verse 20 and provides the context for verse 21 is especially troubling, because it is a preposition that can mean many different things.  This passage could say "saved by water" or "saved with water" or "saved through[out] water," etc.

Indeed, Young's literal translation puts it this way:

Quote
who sometime disbelieved, when once the long-suffering of God did wait, in days of Noah -- an ark being preparing -- in which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water; also to which an antitype doth now save us -- baptism, (not a putting away of the filth of flesh, but the question of a good conscience in regard to God,) through the rising again of Jesus Christ,


The antitype Peter explores is Noah.  So was Noah saved by the flood?  Certainly not.  Was Noah saved with the flood?  No.  Was Noah saved through[out] the flood?  Yes, we can say that.  Now baptism is a symbol of death (being buried, as the verse in Titus shows).  Are believers saved by death?  No.  Are believers saved from death? No- all will experience death.  But are believers saved through[out] death?  Yes.

I promise I'm not mincing words here- a pesky preposition can alter the meaning under of a text considerably.  Wink

By the way, in Acts 10, Peter encounters a bunch of Gentile believers who were filled with the Holy Spirit- but they had not been baptized. 



My translation (ESV) says "through" also, but even in Young's translation, it says that baptism (the antitype) "doth now save you."  The point is that baptism saves, whether that may happen "by" or "through" the actual water.  This quote from Luther's Small Catechism may help to explain where I'm coming from:

Originally posted by Martin Luther Martin Luther wrote:

How can water do such great things?

Certainly not just water, but the Word of God in and with the water does these things, along with the faith which trusts the Word of God in the water.  For without God's Word, the water is plain water and no baptism, but with the Word of God it is a baptism, that is, a life-giving water, rich in grace, and a washing of rebirth in the Holy Spirit, as St. Paul writes in Romans chapter 6...

And thus follows the passage which I mistakenly quoted as Titus 3:5-8. Confused

As far as your other responses go, well, I don't have much to say in return at the moment, as I haven't really studied these things as much as you have.



I believe you are still misreading Peter's words.  Peter says baptism does not work by cleansing you [it does not engender righteousness or make you clean before God], but by demonstrating a clear conscience to God [you are acting in obedience].  Baptism is an act of obedience, but we both know that an act of obedience does not literally save anyone- it only demonstrates an obedient heart that loves Jesus (John 14:15).  This squares with what Matthew says.  Matthew 3 tells us that baptism fulfills righteousness

But even if I were to agree with you, I would have to ask: How then do you differentiate a literal text from synecdoche? 

By your reading, if I get dunked in some water, I'm saved ("The point is that baptism saves...").  That's all it takes.  But I'm sure you would agree that there is more to it.  Consider this example:

You: "Hey man, how did you make it to my party so soon?"
Me: "I have a great set of wheels."

Did I make it to your party soon because I literally had four wheels and that is all?  No.  Four wheels do nothing alone to transport anyone.  But you know by my figurative language that I'm talking about a whole car.

Similarly, baptism is an element of the Christian narrative.  Peter didn't mention repentance or faith.  John in 1 John 5:1 didn't mention baptism or repentance.  Paul in Romans 10:9-10 didn't mention obedience or baptism.  The authors in the Bible could speak as they did because their audience already had a fundamental understanding of salvation.

Sorry for the late (really late) reply to this, Rob, I got kind of busy in the days following this discussion.

The literal translation says that baptism is "a question of a good conscience in regard to God," leaving it ambiguous whether it is a demonstration of a good conscience, or a request for one.  The ESV translates it as "an appeal to God for a clear conscience," not that the statement must be understood that way, but it shows that the clause could be interpreted differently.  Before that, when Peter says that baptism is "not a putting away of the filth of flesh," he doesn't imply that baptism doesn't cleanse spiritually, but that it's not a mere physical cleansing.  Baptism is indeed an act of obedience, but so is faith, and I think we would both agree that we are saved through faith.  On the human level, both faith and baptism appear to be human acts and choices, but faith is a gift of God, and humans cannot choose God for themselves.  Likewise, the true work of baptism is not accomplished by man, but by God, who saves by water and the word.

That brings me to your next point, that the passage could be taken as synecdoche.  First of all, I don't mean to say that a mere dunking in water can save someone.  Baptism is more than plain water; as I pointed out with my Luther quote above, "it is the water included in God's command and combined with God's word.  Without the word of God, the water is plain water and no baptism."  God has many ways of imparting grace to his children; he gives grace through his Word, confession and absolution, the Lord's Supper, and Baptism.  Yes, they're all elements of the same Christian narrative, but they also are all means of grace, which give grace to us in different ways. 


Faith (pistis) is not an act of obedience per se.  Mediterranean people would not have classified it as such.  Faith is a perpetual trust in a patron, who shows grace (charis).  I encourage anyone who wants to understand the classical perception of what we call "faith" and "grace" to read Cicero's De Officiis ("On Obligations") and Seneca's De Beneficiis ("On Benefits").

So as you say, faith is thus a "gift" from God (Ephesians 2:8-9), as it is a product of his grace.  Even Hebrews 12:2 says that Jesus is the author and perfecter of our faith.  Christ is the vine and we are but humble branches; the fruits we bear become more lively and vibrant only because of who He is.  Our responses (baptism, evangelism, charitable works, attending church, giving, etc.) are but outgrowths of that relationship.

I would ask you, however, why, if baptism is a requisite to salvation, we are not told of a single person Jesus himself baptized, nor are we told of anyone the disciples baptized before Acts?

The thief on the cross whom Christ spoke encouragement and mercy to was not baptized, nor did he evangelize, nor did he have any charitable works, nor did he attend a church, nor did he give an offering.  It reminds me of a hymn: "The vilest offender who truly believes / That moment from Jesus a pardon receives."  Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2012 at 17:41

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2012 at 22:05
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

Originally posted by infocat infocat wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:



I do, but Jesus promises eternal life to those who believe; they will live beyond their own earthly death and that of the human race and our universe.  The point is that, if death is the end, then the death of all things in existence renders existence meaningless.


Do you intend on justifying that in any way?

I think I already did above but I'll go for it again.  In a universe without God or the supernatural, when a person dies, their consciousness is wiped out.  None of what they did in life has any significance any more, because it has ended in death.  When someone has a dream, no matter how remarkable the dream is, it has no effect on the person if their memory of the dream is gone.  If death is the end, life is merely a forgotten dream.  The end of something, it's final goal and outcome, it what determines its significance.  Even if we accept the saying that "the journey is what matters, not the destination," we can still say that the significance is in the final outcome, because the final outcome of the journey is not the destination, but the experiences and lessons learned from the journey.  The final outcome of life is death.  Since life cannot be remembered after death, the experiences and lessons of life no longer have any significance.  Neither do they have significance to the lives of others, because they will all die also.
This is perplexing.  The life lived by one who has died certainly affects, or at least can affect, those who are still living, and even those who have yet to live.

Yes, they would affect the lives of others, but still would lack significance because the lives of others would be meaningless as well.


This would imply that only that which has consciousness is significant.

Fire isn't even a conscious thing and it can leave you homeless, disfigured, or dead.

Or would you say that all the non-Christians who died in the Revolutionary War were insignificant existences?

Suppose a non-Christian does something that inadvertently leads to ten other people to become Christians.  Would the life of that non-Christian then still lack significance?


Unconscious things have significance because they affect the lives of conscious beings.  Good deeds of non-Christians are significant because they affect Christians and those who may become Christians.  What they do in this life also has eternal significance; whether or not someone who does not believe comes to faith or not has eternal significance.  If someone dies a non-believer (I'll allow for your view of the existence of hell here) his life may be completely insignificant to him, but it's still significant for the lives of others.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2012 at 08:24
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:



I think I already did above but I'll go for it again.  In a universe without God or the supernatural, when a person dies, their consciousness is wiped out.  None of what they did in life has any significance any more, because it has ended in death.  When someone has a dream, no matter how remarkable the dream is, it has no effect on the person if their memory of the dream is gone.  If death is the end, life is merely a forgotten dream.  The end of something, it's final goal and outcome, it what determines its significance.  Even if we accept the saying that "the journey is what matters, not the destination," we can still say that the significance is in the final outcome, because the final outcome of the journey is not the destination, but the experiences and lessons learned from the journey.  The final outcome of life is death.  Since life cannot be remembered after death, the experiences and lessons of life no longer have any significance.  Neither do they have significance to the lives of others, because they will all die also.


Let's say you're in heaven doing your heavenly thing. After maybe 10^25 years you'll probably not remember the first 100 years. Does that make them meaningless?
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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