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Ambient Hurricanes View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2013 at 14:50
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:


Geoff:  My purpose was not to define the gospel, but to critique gnosticism; if I was to put the gospel in a nutshell, I would use John 3:16 (predictably), as I just did over in the atheist/agnostic thread.  Yes, the message about the kingdom of heaven is important; a huge emphasis in the gospels is that Christ came to inaugurate God's kingdom on earth.  But it's also important to realize that the kingdom of heaven is emphasized in Matthew, while other books emphasize different things.  The Gospel has many layers, and is very deep, but it all centers around Jesus Christ and His incarnation, earthly life and ministry, death, resurrection, ascension, and second coming. 

Oh, no doubt the ideas in the Bible are many layered.  However, "the kingdom of heaven is at hand" is, by definition, THE gospel.  Gospel was a word used specifically for one type of good news in the day: the news of a new Caesar.  So, "the kingdom of heaven is at hand" was quite literally a gospel message - a politically subversive one as well.  I just think it's interesting, when you think about it, because Christianity today seems to have overwhelmingly taken the attitude that this world does not matter - more than that, it's evil, so to hell with it.  But I don't think that's how God works - God cares about this creation, that he declared was "good" and he wants us to take care of it as well.  I think we're finding, these days, that a lot of the doctrines have been very distorted through the mixing of other religious views into Christianity, and this is very evident when people like Carl Medearis (just finished his fantastic book "Speaking of Jesus", which I highly recommend, though it doesn't quite get into the subjects I'm hinting at here) ask people what they think of Christianity and the responses are overwhelmingly negative - whilst the following question "what do you think of Jesus?" always has positive results.  Something went very, very wrong with our doctrine.  But those who dare to challenge it are shot down as being heretics - and yet the message they are bringing is taking hold anyways.  If you're interested in exploring deeper, I could recommend some books, but I'll warn you - they will radically challenge ideas you may have held all your life.


I see where you're coming from; I especially like your point about the gospel being political, because there's a common misconception among Christians that it wasn't.

But tell me this: how do you define "the kingdom of heaven," and what does it mean for that kingdom to be at hand?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2013 at 12:06
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:


Geoff:  My purpose was not to define the gospel, but to critique gnosticism; if I was to put the gospel in a nutshell, I would use John 3:16 (predictably), as I just did over in the atheist/agnostic thread.  Yes, the message about the kingdom of heaven is important; a huge emphasis in the gospels is that Christ came to inaugurate God's kingdom on earth.  But it's also important to realize that the kingdom of heaven is emphasized in Matthew, while other books emphasize different things.  The Gospel has many layers, and is very deep, but it all centers around Jesus Christ and His incarnation, earthly life and ministry, death, resurrection, ascension, and second coming. 

Oh, no doubt the ideas in the Bible are many layered.  However, "the kingdom of heaven is at hand" is, by definition, THE gospel.  Gospel was a word used specifically for one type of good news in the day: the news of a new Caesar.  So, "the kingdom of heaven is at hand" was quite literally a gospel message - a politically subversive one as well.  I just think it's interesting, when you think about it, because Christianity today seems to have overwhelmingly taken the attitude that this world does not matter - more than that, it's evil, so to hell with it.  But I don't think that's how God works - God cares about this creation, that he declared was "good" and he wants us to take care of it as well.  I think we're finding, these days, that a lot of the doctrines have been very distorted through the mixing of other religious views into Christianity, and this is very evident when people like Carl Medearis (just finished his fantastic book "Speaking of Jesus", which I highly recommend, though it doesn't quite get into the subjects I'm hinting at here) ask people what they think of Christianity and the responses are overwhelmingly negative - whilst the following question "what do you think of Jesus?" always has positive results.  Something went very, very wrong with our doctrine.  But those who dare to challenge it are shot down as being heretics - and yet the message they are bringing is taking hold anyways.  If you're interested in exploring deeper, I could recommend some books, but I'll warn you - they will radically challenge ideas you may have held all your life.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2013 at 00:11
Timothy and Geoff: sorry for the late replies here.  I haven't had much time for PA as of late and when I've been on it's mostly been quick reading without posting. 

Timothy: first of all, that's quite a dubious reading of Jeremiah 8:8.  From what I've read, there's no real proof that this verse refers to an actual corruption of the Torah; it just as likely could refer to false prophecies, interpretations, etc. that perverted the original meaning of the text.  Obviously, the Law still existed in uncorrupted form at the time, since Jeremiah could refer to his audience's knowledge of the Law and demand that they return to it.

As to the idea of Scripture being originally written in Hebrew, here's an excerpt from the Wikipedia article on the subject:

"The Hebrew Gospel hypothesis (or proto-Gospel hypothesis or original Gospel hypothesis is a group of related theories advancing the proposition that the Gospel of Matthew was first composed in Hebrew or Aramaic. It originates with the early Christian writer Papias, and was then repeated by later Church Fathers including Jerome. It survives into the modern period, but studies have shown it to be untenable.[1]"

When even modern biblical critics (whose ideas the rest of the article discusses) dismiss a belief that runs contrary to traditional Christianity, I think we ought to be skeptical of it.  Jerome and some other early fathers may have thought the original gospel was written in Hebrew, but modern historical scholarship has confirmed the church tradition that the original document was Greek.  As far as the epistle of Peter to James goes, I would appreciate a citation for your source because I only found this writing in obscure places, and all the information I could find on it was that it was from a group of early writings falsely attributed to the early church father Clement.  It doesn't sound very credible to me, unlike the gospels, for which we have thousands of thousands of pieces of historical evidence and verification.

Geoff:  My purpose was not to define the gospel, but to critique gnosticism; if I was to put the gospel in a nutshell, I would use John 3:16 (predictably), as I just did over in the atheist/agnostic thread.  Yes, the message about the kingdom of heaven is important; a huge emphasis in the gospels is that Christ came to inaugurate God's kingdom on earth.  But it's also important to realize that the kingdom of heaven is emphasized in Matthew, while other books emphasize different things.  The Gospel has many layers, and is very deep, but it all centers around Jesus Christ and His incarnation, earthly life and ministry, death, resurrection, ascension, and second coming. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2013 at 22:46
I am a Quaker although I am an unconventional one because in terms of Philosophy I am a Confucian and I might want to become a Christian Zoroastrian as well. So I'm technially a Conservative Christian Humanist.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2013 at 04:05
Originally posted by AlexDOM AlexDOM wrote:

Originally posted by Tom Ozric Tom Ozric wrote:

I was brought up as a Christian in my youth, but those beliefs and values seemed to have gone out the door from my mid-teens onwards. 
Neal Morse is now my saviour.........Thumbs Up.

Jesus Christ is my savior, and all ours if we accept it or not. But yeah Morse is my hero, one of my favorite individuals by far.

Absolutely agreed
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2013 at 00:06
MORSE - incredible on Keyboards, amazing on Guitar, brilliant at composing Prog, superb voice and he's stage personality is spot-on.  Who could expect more from an artist.  His 'messages' come across very sensibly and they are perfectly legit.  The track 'We All Need Some Light' (Transatlantic) has meaningful lyrics and a seriously kick-ass melody.  Top-shelf Prog, no doubt.  The guy can do no wrong as far as I'm concerned (and I haven't even heard much of his stuff.....).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 04 2013 at 11:01
Originally posted by Tom Ozric Tom Ozric wrote:

I was brought up as a Christian in my youth, but those beliefs and values seemed to have gone out the door from my mid-teens onwards. 
Neal Morse is now my saviour.........Thumbs Up.

Jesus Christ is my savior, and all ours if we accept it or not. But yeah Morse is my hero, one of my favorite individuals by far.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 04 2013 at 01:02
I was brought up as a Christian in my youth, but those beliefs and values seemed to have gone out the door from my mid-teens onwards. 
Neal Morse is now my saviour.........Thumbs Up.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2013 at 11:58
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

The main problem with gnosticism (and with most other heresies and false religions, in my opinion) is that it says that humans can save themselves.  That's the exact opposite of the Christian message of salvation by the grace of God, through faith in Christ Jesus (and we receive even our own faith only as a gift of God).

You know, this is interesting, because if you had asked me, up until recently, what the gospel was, I would have immediately quoted  that same verse.  But I only recently realized the problem - why is it that the first verse most evangelicals jump to in order to declare the message of the gospel is a quote from Paul?  Why isn't it a quote from Jesus himself?  Jesus' message of what the gospel amounted to: "the kingdom of heaven is at hand!"  (Mark 1:14-15, Matthew 3:2, Matthew 4:17, just to name a few....)

Does this make you curious, as it did me, when I first heard this?  Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2013 at 22:39
I respect your position, I just do not believe it. If not many go through the narrow gate, then the criteria to pass through must be stringent, to know the truth you must live the truth. If you do not believe the New Testament has come down in a corrupted manner and you believe the words you read today are the words that were written in the 1st century here is something to ponder......."How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the Lord is with us'?  But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie" (Jer 8:8 NASB)
The second reality that modern Christians fail to understand is the fact that the Gospels that were given to the Gentiles by the Ebionite Nazirene Disciples of Yeshua/Jesus, were themselves of a more simple and lesser spiritual level, even prior to being corrupted by the Gentiles.   Thus, St. Jerome writes with respect to the Original Gospel which was written in Hebrew Characters: "A difficult work is enjoined, since this translation has been commanded me by your Felicities, which St. Matthew himself, the Apostle and Evangelist, did not wish to be openly written. For if it had not been Secret, he would have added to the evangel that which he gave forth was his; but he made up this book sealed up in the Hebrew characters, which he put forth even in such a way that the book, written in Hebrew letters and by the hand of himself, might be possessed by the men most religious, who also, in the course of time, received it from those who preceded them. But this very book they never gave to any one to be transcribed, and its text they related some one way and some another".     And this is confirmed in the Epistle of Peter And James where it is written: "Hear me, brethren and fellow-servants. If we should give the books to all indiscriminately, and they should be corrupted by any daring men, or be perverted by interpretations, as you have heard that some have already done, it will remain even for those who really seek the truth, always to wander in error.   Wherefore it is better that they should be with us, and that we should communicate them with all the fore-mentioned care to those who wish to live piously, and to save others."  

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2013 at 22:07
Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

In luke 11:52 we are told about the Pharisees and the keys of knowledge. There is no doubt the Way was about gnosis. For instance the old outward temple, you slay animals for sacrifice.......just a sign. The new inner temple in yourself, you slay your inner animal, beastly tendencies "Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature." It would seem most of the world, myself included, are still in the "Far Country"


The usage of the word gnosis (knowledge) does not indicate an acceptance of gnostic beliefs any more than our use of the word "knowledge" would.  "Gnostic" was simply a name that early followers of the philosophy pinned on themselves to indicate their emphasis of personal knowledge as the way to salvation.

When the gnostics talked about "gnosis," they were talking about an inner knowledge by which you could save yourself.  This is entirely different from the biblical doctrine of faith.  Faith is trust in something outside yourself: namely, Jesus Christ, the savior of mankind.  Christians believe (and have believed as long as Christianity has been around) that you cannot save yourself by knowledge or might or anything else, but only by grace, through faith in Christ Jesus. 

Your animal sacrifice example doesn't work, either.  The Epistle to the Hebrews makes it clear that animal sacrifices were a foreshadowing of Christ, who was the ultimate sacrifice to atone for all sins on the cross. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2013 at 18:50
In luke 11:52 we are told about the Pharisees and the keys of knowledge. There is no doubt the Way was about gnosis. For instance the old outward temple, you slay animals for sacrifice.......just a sign. The new inner temple in yourself, you slay your inner animal, beastly tendencies "Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature." It would seem most of the world, myself included, are still in the "Far Country"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2013 at 16:58
^I'm not sure exactly what you're talking about.  Are you referring to the surpression of the doctrine of grace by the medieval church, or to something else?  Christianity was called "The Way" in it's earliest years, and "The Way" is the most-often used term in the Book of Acts for the Christian faith.  But The Way included many more believers than merely the original Jewish followers; already in the early years of the church, recorded in Acts, Gentiles were being brought into the church from places as far as Rome and even, we think, India. 

The early church emphasized obedience, but emphasized grace and faith more (see Romans and Hebrews for examples of this).  I agree that our fractured and divided church today is far from the unity and peace the early Christians had among themselves, but unfortunately, that's a consequence of sin and also of the vast growth of the church that we just have to deal with.  The best thing we can do is to peacefully and respectively acknowledge and discuss our differences while maintaining brotherly fellowship with Christians from all places and all sects.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2013 at 16:25
I wonder what happened to the original Jewish followers of Jesus. The Ebionites/Nazarenes. The Way. Branded heretics by a religion founded in Rome and presided over by an Emperor, All the talk of faith and so little of the talk of obedience. This fractured religion called Christianity with it's myriad of denominations is a long way from The Way it would seem. Grace is a gift from God, faith is a gift from God, life itself is a gift from God.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2013 at 13:27
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

The main problem with gnosticism (and with most other heresies and false religions, in my opinion) is that it says that humans can save themselves.  That's the exact opposite of the Christian message of salvation by the grace of God, through faith in Christ Jesus (and we receive even our own faith only as a gift of God).

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2013 at 17:19
The main problem with gnosticism (and with most other heresies and false religions, in my opinion) is that it says that humans can save themselves.  That's the exact opposite of the Christian message of salvation by the grace of God, through faith in Christ Jesus (and we receive even our own faith only as a gift of God).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2013 at 17:11
I like Gnosticism, but then I've always had a bit of the heretic in me.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2013 at 16:57
^It's basically gnosticism, which is a heresy that the church has combated almost since it's beginning.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2013 at 08:11
How do you guys feel about Christian Science?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2013 at 15:48
The problem with the new age/new spirituality movement is that it's kind of pick and choose; essentially a make-your-own religion, which the author touched on somewhat.  At its core, it's a syncretistic spirtuality, basically a hybrid of Western and Eastern spirituality, which to me reduces its credibility somewhat, because when you really look at them, the Western and the Eastern worldviews are obviously incompatible with one another.
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