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dr wu23 View Drop Down
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Points: 20702 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2013 at 14:46
Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

My bad....you is then
 
"You are what you is."
 
Zappa
 
Wink
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
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Points: 361 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2013 at 19:34
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

^ Interesting - I have put it on my list of books I want to read.  Thank you!  I have another one of his books on my list.

Yeah, even that title is provocative.  I had a recent conversation where someone asked what the gospel was and how to preach it.  I went into the history of the word "euangelion" and how Jesus' gospel matched other gospels of Caesar and other "messiah's" in some ways, but contrasted them in others, etc. etc. (I have a blog post on the subject).  So then, the person who started the conversation goes "Geoff, what is truth?"  So I immediately had this back-of-the-neck-hair-raising-suspicious feeling from that question.  So I go into the difference between "truths" and "Truth", which is infinite and thus infinitely unknowable, etc.  So she starts going "is there anything you know is true?"  And I can tell she's heretic hunting here, so I'm taking an avoidant stance.  I'm describing how people often claim to "know" things, but all they know is what they've perceived, and this implies that they've put trust in their methods of perception, but how can we "know" that we don't have faulty perception?  What if my eyes are bad and I've never found out (for example)?  Etc.  She keeps hounding me: "is there anything you know is true?"  Over and over again she's asking, and I'm trying to get her to think deeply and lead her to the inevitable answer.  She's having none of it.  Other people in the thread are even telling her she's being pushy and rude, but she's ignoring them.  Finally, after she repeats the "is there anything you know" line of questioning I give her my answer: "there is only one thing anyone can know with absolute certainty: I am."  Boom, she goes off on a tirade about what a heretic I am and lists of about 30 things she "knows" are true that are requirements for being a "Christian", and therefore I'm not one but a wolf in sheep's clothing in the service of Satan, bla bla bla.  I say "you don't know any of those things.  You hope and trust in them, just as I hope and trust in the things I believe in.  And belief, by the way, is more than thoughts in your head - it's about what you're willing to act on.  If you can't act on it, you don't really believe it."  More heretic calling, etc., and finally I leave.  Eh...well, I thought you might enjoy that story.

Been reading Descartes?
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dtguitarfan View Drop Down
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Points: 1708 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2013 at 08:29
Originally posted by Second Life Syndrome Second Life Syndrome wrote:

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

^ Interesting - I have put it on my list of books I want to read.  Thank you!  I have another one of his books on my list.

Yeah, even that title is provocative.  I had a recent conversation where someone asked what the gospel was and how to preach it.  I went into the history of the word "euangelion" and how Jesus' gospel matched other gospels of Caesar and other "messiah's" in some ways, but contrasted them in others, etc. etc. (I have a blog post on the subject).  So then, the person who started the conversation goes "Geoff, what is truth?"  So I immediately had this back-of-the-neck-hair-raising-suspicious feeling from that question.  So I go into the difference between "truths" and "Truth", which is infinite and thus infinitely unknowable, etc.  So she starts going "is there anything you know is true?"  And I can tell she's heretic hunting here, so I'm taking an avoidant stance.  I'm describing how people often claim to "know" things, but all they know is what they've perceived, and this implies that they've put trust in their methods of perception, but how can we "know" that we don't have faulty perception?  What if my eyes are bad and I've never found out (for example)?  Etc.  She keeps hounding me: "is there anything you know is true?"  Over and over again she's asking, and I'm trying to get her to think deeply and lead her to the inevitable answer.  She's having none of it.  Other people in the thread are even telling her she's being pushy and rude, but she's ignoring them.  Finally, after she repeats the "is there anything you know" line of questioning I give her my answer: "there is only one thing anyone can know with absolute certainty: I am."  Boom, she goes off on a tirade about what a heretic I am and lists of about 30 things she "knows" are true that are requirements for being a "Christian", and therefore I'm not one but a wolf in sheep's clothing in the service of Satan, bla bla bla.  I say "you don't know any of those things.  You hope and trust in them, just as I hope and trust in the things I believe in.  And belief, by the way, is more than thoughts in your head - it's about what you're willing to act on.  If you can't act on it, you don't really believe it."  More heretic calling, etc., and finally I leave.  Eh...well, I thought you might enjoy that story.

Been reading Descartes?

Haha, actually, no.  I mean, I'm familiar with the quote.  It's other things that I've been reading and thinking about that led me to this conclusion.  We're so addicted to certainty in America, and it's actually becoming quite harmful, because no one can have a peaceful conversation about any topic any more.  But when you really think about it, you can't be certain of anything but the fact that you exist.  Because in order to believe anything, you have to put your hope and trust in something.  I can say "I saw A, so I believe B."  But that implies that I'm putting trust in my vision.  I trust that my vision is not faulty.  But how can I know?  Well, I can ask other people to look at what I looked at and describe it, and if it matches, I can put more trust in my belief.  But this implies that I must trust that everyone's vision is perfect - it's possible that every single human being has vision that is faulty and that does not perceive things as they really are.  But it would not be a very pleasant existence to live like that, so at some point you put your hope and trust in things, because it is more healthy to do so.  And if we could all admit that, and seek healthy beliefs rather than beliefs based on a false certainty, the world would be a much better place!
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Points: 4287 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2013 at 11:57
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Originally posted by tamijo tamijo wrote:

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

Buddha says awareness of self is illusion and the main cause of suffering

but I think that was more what Buddha was getting at
I know a lot of buddists, both westeners (sigh) and Asians, but its the first time anyone have indicated to know what Budda was getting at. LOL

I'm not claiming to understand Buddha in the same way I understand that 2+2=4.  It is very difficult for anyone to claim understanding of these concepts, as they almost always involve some paradox.  For example, it could be said that in order to properly release the self, you must first understand your self.  It's tricky, for sure.  What I'm getting at, though, is that I don't think the goal is this complete detachment where you become apathetic.  Rather, it is more about becoming very much "real", very much in the world.  To be "real" and in the world, you must learn to stop living inside of your false self.  But to stop living in your false self, you must first be aware of your false self, and how it operates.  Yes, very confusing, I know.  But perhaps you're starting to see what I'm getting at at little?
Sure, I'm aware that was not what you was trying to say, just came out in a funny way LOL
and I do agree to your claim, it's not about becoming apathetic, it's about being in a state where you are able to be in the situation, without the situation getting 'in' you.
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dr wu23 View Drop Down
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Points: 20702 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2013 at 14:09
If anyone is interested in watching an interesting film that addresses these issues about enlightenment while still being a part of the wrold I recommend The Razors Edge with Bill Murray or the old version with Tyrone Power.
Based on Maugham's short novel btw.
"The sharp edge of a razor is difficult to pass over; thus the wise say the path to Salvation is hard," taken from a verse in the Katha-Upanishad.
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
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Points: 1708 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 08 2013 at 07:56
I have written a new blog post defending the idea that social justice is a concept in the Bible.  I thought about sharing it in the Libertarian thread...but I don't need to go there.  WinkLOL
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Points: 32587 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 08 2013 at 18:06
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

I have written a new blog post defending the idea that social justice is a concept in the Bible.  I thought about sharing it in the Libertarian thread...but I don't need to go there.  WinkLOL


I think you'd benefit from these:

http://www.amazon.com/Social-Science-Commentary-Synoptic-Gospels-Malina/dp/0800634918

http://www.amazon.com/Honor-Patronage-Kinship-Purity-Unlocking/dp/0830815724/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1381272777&sr=1-1&keywords=honor+purity

http://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Near-Eastern-Thought-Testament/dp/0801027500/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_z

Reading anachronistic ideals into the Bible doesn't persuade me, I must say.  I mean, if you want to get into it, God was disappointed that Israel even asked for an earthly government.

Originally posted by 1 Samuel 8 1 Samuel 8 wrote:


6 But when they said, “Give us a king to lead us,” this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the Lord. 7 And the Lord told him: “Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king. 8 As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are doing to you. 9 Now listen to them; but warn them solemnly and let them know what the king who will reign over them will claim as his rights.”

10 Samuel told all the words of the Lord to the people who were asking him for a king. 11 He said, “This is what the king who will reign over you will claim as his rights: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots. 12 Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. 13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. 14 He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants. 15 He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. 16 Your male and female servants and the best of your cattlec]">[c] and donkeys he will take for his own use. 17 He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. 18 When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, but the Lord will not answer you in that day.”

19 But the people refused to listen to Samuel. “No!” they said. “We want a king over us. 20 Then we will be like all the other nations, with a king to lead us and to go out before us and fight our battles.”

21 When Samuel heard all that the people said, he repeated it before the Lord. 22 The Lord answered, “Listen to them and give them a king.”

Then Samuel said to the Israelites, “Everyone go back to your own town.”



Sounds like God had about as high an opinion of monarchies as he did of democracies.  Wink
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dr wu23 View Drop Down
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Points: 20702 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 08 2013 at 22:28
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

I have written a new blog post defending the idea that social justice is a concept in the Bible.  I thought about sharing it in the Libertarian thread...but I don't need to go there.  WinkLOL
Based on Gospel writings on Jesus he was definitely for 'social justice' and if he were alive today he would be seen as a left wing radical.....which makes one wonder why so many Christian conservatives cling to their  idea of who they think he was and don't actually utilize any of his principles.
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Points: 1708 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 09 2013 at 05:54
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


Reading anachronistic ideals into the Bible doesn't persuade me, I must say.  I mean, if you want to get into it, God was disappointed that Israel even asked for an earthly government.

Originally posted by 1 Samuel 8 1 Samuel 8 wrote:


6 But when they said, “Give us a king to lead us,” this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the Lord. 7 And the Lord told him: “Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king. 8 As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are doing to you. 9 Now listen to them; but warn them solemnly and let them know what the king who will reign over them will claim as his rights.”

10 Samuel told all the words of the Lord to the people who were asking him for a king. 11 He said, “This is what the king who will reign over you will claim as his rights: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots. 12 Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. 13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. 14 He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants. 15 He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. 16 Your male and female servants and the best of your cattlec]">[c] and donkeys he will take for his own use. 17 He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. 18 When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, but the Lord will not answer you in that day.”

19 But the people refused to listen to Samuel. “No!” they said. “We want a king over us. 20 Then we will be like all the other nations, with a king to lead us and to go out before us and fight our battles.”

21 When Samuel heard all that the people said, he repeated it before the Lord. 22 The Lord answered, “Listen to them and give them a king.”

Then Samuel said to the Israelites, “Everyone go back to your own town.”



Sounds like God had about as high an opinion of monarchies as he did of democracies.  Wink

That is a very over-generalized mis-statement of what that passage was about.  The people were using a democracy to choose a monarchy.  God is not against democracy, and neither is God against government.  You are, but that doesn't mean the Bible is. You just choose to be so violently opposed to any form of authority that you gloss right over the passages that support it, and then you find the one passage that you can twist to suit your needs amongst the dozens I can find that refute your position, and then you think you've won.
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Points: 32587 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 09 2013 at 08:33
My comment was a tongue-in-cheek use of your own (irresponsible) hermeneutical practices.  The Bible is not some textbook which one may use to pick out verses to support a cause.  It isn't to be used as a pissing match on who can find more Bible verses.  The biblical texts must be respected regarding cultural, historical, and linguistic contexts. 

And how am I violently opposed to anything?  I've never injured anyone!  Shocked Tongue
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Points: 66807 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 09 2013 at 08:38
I'm listening to Stryper today. 
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Points: 31169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 09 2013 at 09:24
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

You just choose to be so violently opposed to any form of authority 

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Points: 5319 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 09 2013 at 09:27
Rabbis were arguing about what the torah and prophets meant and the Messiah came and went and they are arguing today over the minute.
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Points: 31169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 09 2013 at 18:09
I'm praying for you buddy.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 10 2013 at 12:55
Many heated posts hidden. I cannot be motivated to read them. Can I suggest this thread returns to christian topics and all concerned check their political agendas at the door before entering.
 
thanks,
 
the management.
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Points: 1708 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2013 at 15:23
This post might be going viral - I'm almost to 600 views on it just from posting this morning: The Lord's Prayer: A Politically Subversive Message.
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Points: 6797 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2013 at 15:53
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Many heated posts hidden. I cannot be motivated to read them. Can I suggest this thread returns to christian topics and all concerned check their political agendas at the door before entering.
 

thanks,

 

<FONT size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">the management.


Ha Ha! 'THe Management'

Sounds like I missed some bickering
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timothy leary View Drop Down
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Points: 5319 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 13 2013 at 10:50
I especially like this part of your blog post"In this prayer, Jesus teaches us that being in touch with the spirit of God means to desire to be free from attitudes that would lead us to accuse and slander others.  And love does that - love avoids accusation and slander, which cause conflict.  "

I also like how when management asked you to leave political agendas at the door you ignored the request.
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Points: 1708 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 13 2013 at 12:43
Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

I also like how when management asked you to leave political agendas at the door you ignored the request.

Jesus was political.  Some people not liking his politics does not change that.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 13 2013 at 12:57
let me know when the bible is in shutdown.
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