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progbethyname View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2014 at 11:05
Originally posted by Progosopher Progosopher wrote:

If you just want to rock as a listener, you don't need any. If you want to rock as a player it helps to know some. If you are going to compose or perform anything reasonably complex or sophisticated, the level of your knowledge will reflect in your work. This does not necessarily require formal training but that can only enhance your control over what you create. As a listener, I have found that the little I know helps me to both appreciate good music of any genre. More study could only enhance my appreciation of jazz and classical. I understand what you mean about how knowledge of theory can interfere with music already enjoyed, but that is only music that is sub-standard. A former girlfriend was really into Green Day until she started to learn guitar. Then she realized they had done nothing that a first year student could not play. A similar thing has happened to me but now I have come full circle and can enjoy something that simply rocks out. Not Green Day, they are a bunch of posers, but I can get into the Ramones, and that music is not complex but boy does it rock.


What an excellent post. I have to agree with it all. Nice read. Thank you.

Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2014 at 14:36

Originally posted by toaster mantis toaster mantis wrote:

... As a result, I sometimes wonder how much of the compositional content and details regarding performance I'm missing with more "out there" avantgarde/technical music.

I think this is over ... thinking ... or over ... reaching ... things. It "might" and "might not" have compositional elements that you would be missing, but in general, this is very difficult to determine in the 20th century music development, since there is no fine line for helping clear up where "mental" exercises (my word for compostion!!!) or experimental/improvisational music start and end.

RECORDING, over the past 50 years, has shown us that in concert, or just plain live in the studio, that improvisational material is also very good and then later becomes highly defined and valuable, although I have yet to see ANYONE try to do Tangerine Dream!!! Which adds another element to composition ... sound effects!

In the late 50's all the way to the late 60's and early 70's, all the improvisational and experimental theater and film and literature, and art, was not about ... "compositional" content, any more than anything else ... it was about the experience of it all and how you responded to it. As one quasi-philosopher stated, the medium became the message, not the original component that created the music in the first place, or the art itself.

Thus we became enamored with anything that was conditioned by the media, and you forgot the "source".

Without the "source", your question loses its strength.

Without the spirit of the human, your strength is gone. Thus, I, for one, being a writer that does not 2nd guess his vision or dreams, find that a question like this is much too mental to be able to answer a condition that belongs on the inside and can not be easily translated to the outside.

There are just as many elements in one piece as there are in others ... but we have not sat down and worked the new "elements" that deserve to be a part of music history, or any art for that matter, in order to be able to come up with a sensible discussion and answer for you.

Hope this helps ... it was not designed to confuse you.

Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 30 2014 at 06:27
Originally posted by infocat infocat wrote:

I've got a theory; it could be bunnies...

LOL ClapThumbs Up
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 30 2014 at 09:00
There is also the opposit, how much do the teoreticaly well founded miss, do to them not beeing able to stop analysing and just enjoy what they are listening too.
Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 30 2014 at 10:59
I've taken music theory classes for years, and I'll tell ya it should only enhance your appreciation. I now listen and understand when the basic standards (not rules, standards) are followed, and I can hear when some more unique occurrences are going on. I like that Wakeman quote a lot. That was my original interest in theory. Knowing how things work so I can start disobeying all the standards.

The thing is that music isn't about analyzing in the first place. And you'll find, after acquiring your masters in musical theory like we all are bound to Tongue, that many songs just don't obey the rules. But many still do. Some have unique variations. Some don't. Just turn off your analyzation switch. If you can't, then learn to appreciate it. It's a listening tool, which should never be considered a bad thing in my book. What's wrong with being able to hear, love, and fully understand what you're listening to?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 30 2014 at 11:09
I belive all music was created 6 years ago by god...
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 30 2014 at 11:14
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

I belive all music was created 6 years ago by god...

Okay, Edge.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 30 2014 at 11:35
Music theory is not a science. It's not an objective framework for how all music works. It's simply the methods of the western classical composers. In that sense, it's helpful in appreciating classical music, but not necessary. The same thing that makes classical music good is the same thing that makes the Ramones good. They succeed in moving people.  But, yes, it's beneficial if you want to know how western composers do things, and even outside of classical music, it can help.

That said, it, again, is not an objective framework for how all music works. When you learn music theory, you are learning how certain traditions of music work, but not how all traditions of music work. It's good to keep this in mind just in case you start listening to Bob Dylan expecting him to be Palestrina. 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 31 2014 at 00:50
Originally posted by JCDenton JCDenton wrote:

I've taken music theory classes for years, and I'll tell ya it should only enhance your appreciation. I now listen and understand when the basic standards (not rules, standards) are followed, and I can hear when some more unique occurrences are going on. I like that Wakeman quote a lot. That was my original interest in theory. Knowing how things work so I can start disobeying all the standards.

The thing is that music isn't about analyzing in the first place. And you'll find, after acquiring your masters in musical theory like we all are bound to Tongue, that many songs just don't obey the rules. But many still do. Some have unique variations. Some don't. Just turn off your analyzation switch. If you can't, then learn to appreciate it. It's a listening tool, which should never be considered a bad thing in my book. What's wrong with being able to hear, love, and fully understand what you're listening to?
So now you are a better Music listener, congratulations.
Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 31 2014 at 15:32
Originally posted by tamijo tamijo wrote:

 
So now you are a better Music listener, congratulations.
 
I am not sure that one needs to know "theory" to appreciate music.
 
Our house in Santa Barbara has/had over 3K LP's of classical music, and then I went on to have over 2500 LP's of experimental, electronic and progressive and wierdness anything in rock and whatever else you can name it. The best known in the collection? Tangerine Dream!
 
You could say that I have acquired some "theory" by listening, and some serious appreciation of music ... and this parallels the knowledge theory ... you can study 2000 years of music and listen to some snipets of it ... and all it will do to you is give you a larger appreciation for music itself.
 
The bad part, is that pop fiends (word intended!) think that classical music history is for idiots and not valid information for their metal music! But then, there are just as many snobs in many universities that think that pop music is the underbelly of all the human arts!
 
But there is no theory in life? Oh my word ... what a concept!
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2014 at 01:03
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by tamijo tamijo wrote:

 
So now you are a better Music listener, congratulations.
 
I am not sure that one needs to know "theory" to appreciate music.
 
Our house in Santa Barbara has/had over 3K LP's of classical music, and then I went on to have over 2500 LP's of experimental, electronic and progressive and wierdness anything in rock and whatever else you can name it. The best known in the collection? Tangerine Dream!
 
You could say that I have acquired some "theory" by listening, and some serious appreciation of music ... and this parallels the knowledge theory ... you can study 2000 years of music and listen to some snipets of it ... and all it will do to you is give you a larger appreciation for music itself.
 
The bad part, is that pop fiends (word intended!) think that classical music history is for idiots and not valid information for their metal music! But then, there are just as many snobs in many universities that think that pop music is the underbelly of all the human arts!
 
But there is no theory in life? Oh my word ... what a concept!

He wasn't quite saying that I am now able to appreciate music at all or to a better extent.

The best way I can state knowing theory is like the Allegory of the Cave, once the man breaks free from looking at the wall all his life and sees the Sun, he knows some sort of new truth and cannot turn back. Theory just provides more angles for a listener. Being a "good" appreciater (not a word, I know) of music doesn't have the prerequisite of knowing theory. The only prerequisite is having functional ears! Wink We're all good listeners! Smile Well, that's subjective. But whatever..
"We have grown, but there is still much to be done. Many that live in darkness that must be shown the way, for it is the dawning of a new day."
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 07 2014 at 06:08
Thanks for the responses, sorry I haven't posted until now but I've been extremely busy and haven't had the time to read the entire thread.

I think it's important to remember that most music theory so far has evolved in a very specific cultural context to explain very particular music traditions, as in Western "art music". Of course, this same influence will then trickle down to popular music by way of how the entire culture thinks about music at large, as well as how recording technology is designed, but I suppose it's more something to be aware of than use as a measuring stick for quality. Perhaps it'd be easier to find a nuanced perspective on different philosophies of music if I were more into non-Western European music traditions, but I'm not sure I have the time and resources for ever developing an in-depth appreciation of those either.

Someone mentioned that quite a few avantgarde and experimental musicians actually were motivated by trying to think around the music theory they had learned, though that might in turn be how new theories and systematizations of music composition are created. The kind of theory that forms the basis on how I judge music and my enjoyment of has less to do with how technically accomplished the performances are than it has to do with things like:

  • The dynamics in the instrumental interplay, and how much the effect of the individual performances or layers enhance and counterpoint each other.
  • How much of a consistent internal logic there is to the narrative structure of the songwriting, for example how systematic tension is built up and released over the course or the purpose of changes in time or metre.
  • Different types of riffing/chords or sonic texture in the same song: What kind of effect is the contrast between textures used to? For example, if dissonance is used to contrast with conventional melody whether it serves some kind of narrative purpose in the song's progression.
  • The flow of transitions between different sections if the song follows a linear progressive narrative, like what kind of build up and foreshadowing. If different parts recur at several points, are there any kind of variation used to develop them as themes and do they follow some kind of logic in the evolution?
Basically, it's the main reason that I need more and more listens to form an opinion on a piece of music or recording of it. It is obvious this much analysis is not necessary for a lot of music, in fact this might be a reason that I prefer listen to less complex or ambitious music when I don't have time or concentration as more involved stuff commands.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 13 2014 at 10:33
I spent my first 10 years learning to play sheet music and theory. Then I forgot it all and actually started playing. ;-)

30 years later, I'm still learning. But I can't remember when I bothered with musical theory.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 14 2014 at 13:41
Learning theory shouldn't affect you basal enjoyment of music. Theoretically simple, complex, or nonsensical music can all still be beautiful (or not, if that's what you're into). As some people have mentioned, it can add a nice level of depth if you are the type who enjoys picking apart the artists intent.

Originally posted by Toaster Mantis Toaster Mantis wrote:

It is obvious this much analysis is not necessary for a lot of music, in fact this might be a reason that I prefer listen to less complex or ambitious music when I don't have time or concentration as more involved stuff commands.


Yeah, some more complex music requires multiple listens or a well trained ear to fully appreciate. It can be a time commitment. Of course, there is always the chance that you still won't like it even after the time commitment. If you want to get into the analytics of prog, you ought to also enjoy it for the pure emotion of the music, or have a lot of trust in the artists' intent. Otherwise, you will just be wasting time trying to understand a piece that simply wasn't meant for you.



Edited by DreamInSong - September 14 2014 at 13:53
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 15 2014 at 02:27
That said I'm under the impression that except the most extreme technical metal, Zeuhl and Beefheart/Zappa-style Rock In Opposition avantgarde material, the vast majority of progressive rock is still relatively simple and closer to pop/rock if compared to classical. (especially 20th century experimental classical) Even when compared to the most "out there" free jazz improv for that matter.

Again, people I meet from a classical or jazz background tend to like the stuff categorized as RIO/Avant-Prog much more than more mainstream progressive rock - which they find somewhat kitschy.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 16 2014 at 01:53
There is a massive difference between learning music theory, learning to play an instrument technically, ie. being a member of an orchestra, and being a musician. ;-) Being a musician is - for me, anyway, about being able to create and express musical ideas. These ideas do not necessarily come from an appreciation of theory. 

If you show someone a musical score and say "What's that ? " the answer is invariably "music". But it's not. It's actually just a representation of music. If you think about Rene Magritte's picture of a pipe, with the title "Ceci n'est pas un pipe", it's the same thing. 

Music is what occurs in your head. It is a synthesis of ideas and prior musical knowledge or experience. Learning all the scales in the world or how to create a double harmonic minor scale doesn't make you a musician, just as learning the history of art doesn't make you a painter. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 16 2014 at 02:35
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

There is a massive difference between learning music theory, learning to play an instrument technically, ie. being a member of an orchestra, and being a musician. ;-) Being a musician is - for me, anyway, about being able to create and express musical ideas. These ideas do not necessarily come from an appreciation of theory.
The things in bold are what I would say about an artist. To me, being a musician means being a part of some musical group, whether you write your own material or just go out and perform (including what I've underlined in your post).

Edited by Dayvenkirq - September 16 2014 at 02:35
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 16 2014 at 03:12
True enough. ;-) I have issues about orchestral playing, though. Done it. The problem is that just interpreting sheet music is not - for me - being a musician. There is not really any creative process.

Imagine I went onstage and played guitar exactly like Jimi Hendrix, note for note. The audience may be impressed. 90% of the "musicians" in the audience would be impressed. But really, there is no creativity there, no imagination. It's just copying. Which anyone can do. Monkey level of skill.

With modern technology, it's possible for a multi instrumetalist to produce all their own work, but it's no fun. I play guitar, bass, sax, keyboards, flute and percussion. But it's just my own ideas. The best stuff comes when you play with other musicians. 

Theory is massively overrated. I used to think all you needed to do was say "12 bar in E" and that was enough. Actually, that's too complicated. You just start playing in E. Everyone else can see what you're doing, off they go from there. Whether it turns into blues or not, any decent musician should be able to follow you, work out what exactly you're doing, what the scale you're using is, and jam along. You tend to develop this ability to almost telepathically know what someone is going to play, where the song is going, where it can go, etc. 

All this takes a lot of time to develop as a skill. The thing about music is that there is no upper level to it, it's not finite. Musicians get very smug when they first get a note out of an instrument. Then they get a chord out of it and get very self satisfied. Then they can strum a basic tune, and think, how much more is there to know ? - a lifetime's worth of learning. People hide behind music theory, they hide behind equipment, it's all seen as being part of how clever you are, how much theory you know or whether you have the right capacitors in your guitar. Thing is, what really matters is what you play......... and you play from the imagination and experience and feeling, not from a theory book. 

Just personal opinion.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 16 2014 at 03:17
And - really, thinking about it deeper, is this a question of semantics - "musician vs artist" ? - what do the words mean ? If so, Dayvenkirq, completely agree with your post. That makes me an artist. ;-) (Well, I hope it does !!! ) ;-)

I hope I don't come across as immodest in these posts. I am honestly the worlds' most modest musician / artist !! What I really dislike is that a lot of musicians come across as being elitist and superior. I honestly believe that anyone can be taught to play if they approach it with the right attitude and enough enthusiasm.... and a big dose of reality. I've seen too many wannabe's who are in it for money or ego. Please, anyone, these are really just my opinions only. ;-)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 16 2014 at 03:21
^ Yes, obviously, this is just your opinion. And being flexible in semantics is always welcome, ... I think. I personally am not that picky about definitions. I think that if I'm just close enough to the true meaning of the word, I'm going to be just fine.
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