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SteveG
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Topic: Psychedelia: Did Prog enhance it or escape it? Posted: September 05 2014 at 14:17 |
One of the forms that Progressive Music developed out of in the 1960's was experimental Psychedelic Rock like the Beatles' entire Sgt. Pepper's concept album and songs. Was proper Progressive Rock Music in late 1960's trying to enhance Psychedelic Rock or become a more serious art form and try to escape it? Or was it a combination of both, or was neither the case?
Edited by SteveG - September 05 2014 at 15:08
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HolyMoly
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Posted: September 05 2014 at 14:25 |
This is a highly metaphysical question. I think what we'll have to do is analyze, subdivide, define, and re-define all the relevant terms until the topic is limp and lifeless.
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Horizons
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Posted: September 05 2014 at 14:26 |
HolyMoly wrote:
This is a highly metaphysical question. I think what we'll have to do is analyze, subdivide, define, and re-define all the relevant terms until the topic is limp and lifeless.
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Yes.
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SteveG
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Posted: September 05 2014 at 14:30 |
^Try that. Simpler Question.
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HolyMoly
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Posted: September 05 2014 at 14:37 |
That is a little easier to handle. In my opinion, prog was not the direct offspring of psychedelia, but perhaps another, separate branch of "music for the mind" as opposed to the body. So in the context of your question, I guess my answer would be closer to "trying to become a more serious art form and escape it (psych)". I just don't know how intentional it all was. I tend to think it was a lot of artists reaching a similar point in their artistic development at the same time. Some cross pollination of course, but not an organized movement or anything like that.
Edited by HolyMoly - September 05 2014 at 14:37
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Prog_Traveller
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Posted: September 05 2014 at 15:04 |
I would say that the experimentation of psychedelia led to prog(either
directly or indirectly). Sgt. Pepper's, DOFP and PATGOD were not full
blown prog albums but they had elements that eventually became part of
prog. Did psych merge with prog and if so when did this happen? It's
hard to say. Psychedelic at some point morphed into other things such as
jam music(ie Ozric Tentacles, Grateful Dead, Phish etc), Krautrock(Can,
Faust, AD2) and space rock(Hawkwind, Gong etc).
To answer the
original question though it is my opinion that progressive rock tried to
move beyond psych. It was a different approach and had different
influences. Maybe some of it was trying to enhance it but it depends on
the band.
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Prog_Traveller
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Posted: September 05 2014 at 15:09 |
HolyMoly wrote:
That is a little easier to handle.
In my opinion, prog was not the direct offspring of psychedelia, but perhaps another, separate branch of "music for the mind" as opposed to the body. So in the context of your question, I guess my answer would be closer to "trying to become a more serious art form and escape it (psych)". I just don't know how intentional it all was. I tend to think it was a lot of artists reaching a similar point in their artistic development at the same time. Some cross pollination of course, but not an organized movement or anything like that.
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In some cases it was the direct offspring of psychedelic though. I'd say it depends on the band. For Pink Floyd for example they kind of merged psychelic with early prog(I'm talking about their late sixties and early seventies albums). But yeah at some point prog did try to escape psych or move beyond it especially if we are referring to the classic symph prog. However, a lot of the proto prog stuff and other early prog(including the aforementioned PF)did have psychedelic elements.
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SteveG
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Posted: September 05 2014 at 15:21 |
^Good point. I think it would be hard for me to imagine And You And I by Yes Or Trip To The Fair By Renaissance without there psych touches and/or breakdowns even if they are heavily Symphonic Prog.
Edited by SteveG - September 05 2014 at 15:25
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SteveG
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Posted: September 05 2014 at 15:23 |
^And I have a hard time seeing Tangerine Dream as anything but Psych but that's just me.
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darkshade
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Posted: September 05 2014 at 16:31 |
Prog may have come out of Psychedelia, but I think psychedelic music enhanced prog music of the 70s, something modern prog lacks.
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Progosopher
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Posted: September 05 2014 at 19:32 |
I think what we now know as Prog was at its beginning, at least in part, an attempt to enhance Psychadelia but in the end transcended and escaped from it. So, a combination in a sequence.
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The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
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Progosopher
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Posted: September 05 2014 at 19:34 |
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The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
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HackettFan
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Posted: September 05 2014 at 19:38 |
Easy question, for sure. Psychedelic music originated from the 60s drug scene. Progressive music originated from the planet Gong.
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siLLy puPPy
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Posted: September 05 2014 at 19:42 |
Prog basically came from 60s bands who wanted to lift rock to the high levels of jazz and classical. True some of them were involved in psychedelic rock in the early stages but not all such music progressed and not all prog came from psych. Seems like the subgenre that really took psychedelic to new levels was Krautrock. Pink Floyd is space rock but still very commercially viable. Krautrock was way out there. Probably one of those nebulous questions that will never be fully understood but obviously some connection. Seems like the same same could be asked about folk, ethnic music and many others
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Dayvenkirq
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Posted: September 05 2014 at 19:48 |
Neither. Prog co-opts things, not enhances or escapes them.
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Manuel
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Posted: September 06 2014 at 11:11 |
HolyMoly wrote:
That is a little easier to handle.
In my opinion, prog was not the direct offspring of psychedelia, but perhaps another, separate branch of "music for the mind" as opposed to the body. So in the context of your question, I guess my answer would be closer to "trying to become a more serious art form and escape it (psych)". I just don't know how intentional it all was. I tend to think it was a lot of artists reaching a similar point in their artistic development at the same time. Some cross pollination of course, but not an organized movement or anything like that.
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Well said. I don't think at the time people had the "Intention" to move from psychedelia, or any other genre for that matter; it was simply a time when individual expression was highly encouraged, and everyone was trying, in their own way, to create the best music they could.
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Gerinski
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Posted: September 06 2014 at 11:52 |
I'd say that much of the early Prog seeked taking distance from psychedelic music, wanting to be a much more disciplined, serious and cool-minded, cerebral and 'educated' music, rather than the hypnotic trance, often drug enhanced psychedelic music. Many early Prog musicians were anti-drugs, or at least the hallucinogen drugs such as LSD or hard drugs such as heroin. Of course they overlapped and there were many bands which toyed with both and made music combining the spirit of Psych and the more disciplined complexity of Prog.
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Toaster Mantis
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Posted: September 07 2014 at 04:42 |
According to the book I read about psychedelic rock's history, Turn on Your Mind by Jim Derogatis, the first progressive rock groups came out of psychedelic movement but set themselves apart by incorporating influence from classical music. The specific examples he uses as overlap are The Moody Blues, Tomorrow (who later evolved into Yes) and Traffic.
As far as I can gather, the big difference is that in psych-rock the composition's focus is on exploring and layering textures but in prog rock the songwriting is centered on developing narrative structure in a linear fashion. (which might be the main example of the classical influence at work) There will obviously be some overlap because the two don't exclude each other by necessity.
Edited by Toaster Mantis - September 07 2014 at 10:42
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dr wu23
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Posted: September 07 2014 at 09:46 |
Toaster Mantis wrote:
According to the book I read about psychedelic rock's history, Turn on Your Mind by Jim Derogatis, the first progressive rock groups came out of the same "movement" as progressive rock but set themselves apart by incorporating influence from classical music. The specific examples he uses as overlap are The Moody Blues, Tomorrow (who later evolved into Yes) and Traffic.
As far as I can gather, the dividing line between psych and prog is that in the former the composition's focus is on exploring texture but in the latter it's on developing narrative structure in a linear fashion. (which might be the main example of the classical influence) There will obviously be some overlap because the two don't exclude each other by necessity.
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Read the same book a while ago.....that works for me and from the bands I recall listening to back then some did move into prog and I'm sure that the psychedelic movement influenced others to move into prog over time.
And didn't Fripp and other later proggers cite The Beatles as an influence who had plenty of psych pop going on in their later things.
Edited by dr wu23 - September 07 2014 at 09:47
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The Dark Elf
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Posted: September 07 2014 at 10:03 |
In the Court of the Crimson King was psychedelic, or is at least rife with psych tendencies. Anyone who says otherwise has never dropped acid.
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