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Topic ClosedDid the Beatles really Invent Prog? Or not?
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Svetonio View Drop Down
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2015 at 14:21
Quote This song was actually played back in 1966! This version of the song simply showcases the theme. The original version of this song was actually played back in 1964, and can only be found on bootlegs. The official version of this song was released on Weasels Ripped My Flesh in 1970.




'64!





Quote Frank Zappa - 1963 Mount St.Mary's Concert
The Original Concert Program
MOUNT ST. MARY'S COLLEGE DEPARTMENT OF MUSIC presents THE

EXPERIMENTAL MUSIC OF FRANK ZAPPA Sunday, May 19, 1963 8.30 pm

Little Theater, Mount St. Mary's College

Program
I. Variables II for Orchestra
II. Variables I for Any Five Instruments Intermission
III. Opus 5, for Four Orchestras
IV. Rehearsalism
V. Three Pieces of Visual Music with Jazz Group Question and

Answer Period

Tracklist
00:00 (opening comments by Carlos Hagen) - 12:59
12:59 Piece #2 9:54 of Visual Music 1957 for Jazz Ensemble & 16mm
22:53 Piano Pieces from Opus 5 - 4:29
27:22 Collage #1 for Stringed Instruments - 3:44
31:06 2 Fragments of the Prepared Tape to be used in Opus 5 - 5:41
36:47 Opus 5 - 15:09
51:56 (question and answer session) 8:52
1:00:48 (closing comments by Carlos Hagen) 0:34

FZ on an interview from the 1992 Zappa! tribute magazine (Keyboard and Guitar Player):

Actually, the first time I had any of it ["serious" music] performed was at Mount St. Mary's College in 1962. I spent $300 and got together a college orchestra, and I put on this little concert. Maybe less than a hundred people showed up for it, but the thing was actually taped and broadcast by KPFK. (...) By the time I graduated from high school in '58, I still hadn't written any rock and roll songs, although I had a little rock and roll band in my senior year. I didn't write any rock and roll stuff until I was in my 20s. All the music writing that I was doing was either chamber music or orchestral, and none of it ever got played until this concert at Mount St. Mary's.

Rip Rense on the liner notes of The Lost Episodes:

It took place in 1963 at, of all pastoral places, lovely Mount St. Mary's College, a private Catholic institution perched in the lush Santa Monica Mountains above West Los Angeles. (...) The program included a piece called "Opus 5," aleatoric works that required some improvisation, a piece for orchestra and taped electronic music, with accompanying visuals in the form of FZ's own experimental 8mm films (Motorhead Sherwood described one such film depicting the Los Angeles County Fair carnival, double exposed with passing telephone poles).






Edited by Svetonio - July 07 2015 at 14:39
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Points: 6116 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2015 at 14:32
Yes. They also invented psychedelia and toasters.
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SteveG View Drop Down
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Points: 20602 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2015 at 14:40
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Perhaps I should have titled this thread 'Who really invented Prog? The Beatles or Zappa?'
 


then you would have been hammered for incorrect choices.

The Nice in 1968.






Sorry micky, but the Nice did not record Tomorrow Never Knows in 1966, that was the Beatles.
 
Being the first fully Prog band does not necessitate that the band invented the progressive rock song.
 
Who ever did that is who invented Prog.
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2015 at 14:44
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Svetonio View Drop Down
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2015 at 14:46
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dr wu23 View Drop Down
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Points: 20619 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2015 at 14:47
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

The Beatles' effect on rock music was profound. Yes, profound. Zappa felt compelled to offer a mirror copy of the Sgt. Pepper's album cover for We're Only In It For The Money (we only parody that which has the most influence and popularity). Brian Wilson nearly went mad trying to keep up with The Beatles. Mick Jagger and The Stones spent most of the 60s making albums in emulation of The Beatles, basically going from tree to tree and pissing on the same spots The Beatles had already left their mark.
 
And King Crimson have often noted their adoration of The Beatles: “The Beatles,” remarked Robert Fripp, “achieve probably better than anyone the ability to make you tap your foot first time round, dig the words sixth time round, and get into the guitar slowly panning the twentieth time”, and Bill Bruford commented, “It was felt after Sgt. Pepper anybody could do anything in music. It seemed the wilder the idea musically the better.”
 
So, as a proto-prog influence The Beatles were immense, but as others have commented nothing grows in a vacuum. The lyricism of Bob Dylan, the studio experimentation of The Beatles, the electrifying pyrotechnics of Hendrix, the mini-operas of The Who, the harmonies of The Beach Boys and the integration of orchestra and mellotron by The Moody Blues all were synthesized into rock within a few short eventful years, culminating in what eventually we would term prog-rock.

Best overall summation on this topic so far.....
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Points: 20602 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2015 at 14:50
^Confused Paul Butterfield. King of Prog! LOL
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Points: 284 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2015 at 14:52
@Svetonio Thanks for the cool links. It's good music in it's own right, but I wouldn't call any of it progressive rock. If that's prog, so is this:
 

Wouldn't call "Tomorrow Ever Knows" prog either, though it does clearly rule. I still believe prog rock has a sound, just because something is progressive it doesn't make it prog rock.


Edited by Friday13th - July 07 2015 at 14:52
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Points: 20602 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2015 at 14:54
^Dick Dale. My hero! (really) Thumbs Up

Edited by SteveG - July 07 2015 at 16:16
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Points: 20619 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2015 at 14:58
C'mon folks...we have had this discussion many times before and we all know that 
ITCOTCK and KC were the first 'real prog rock' album and band.

Wink
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SteveG View Drop Down
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Points: 20602 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2015 at 15:02
^I agree Doc, but they did not invent the Prog song, IMHO, but were, are, and always will be the definitive progressive rock group. I wish I saw them live in their first incarnation!

Edited by SteveG - July 07 2015 at 19:42
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Friday13th View Drop Down
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Points: 284 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2015 at 15:02
^ basically! King Crimson defines prog, so if it doesn't sound like King Crimson, than it ain't prog! LOL
Seriously though, there were progressive rock songs prior to Crimson. Not sure any band prior to them was as committed to that sound though.


Edited by Friday13th - July 07 2015 at 15:04
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SteveG View Drop Down
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Points: 20602 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2015 at 15:08
^Hmm, micky has a good case with the Nice. After Davy O'list left, they were mainly Prog and predated KC. But they did not have that quintessential KC sound, if that's what your referring to.
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SteveG View Drop Down
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Points: 20602 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2015 at 15:10
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

C'mon folks...we have had this discussion many times before and we all know that 
ITCOTCK and KC were the first 'real prog rock' album and band.

Wink


Doc  is a wise old dude. I guess the only thing that's left for us to do is re invent the wheel. LOL
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Points: 284 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2015 at 15:15
The Nice were...nice, but I can't forgive them for butchering "Blue Rondo a la Turk." I don't think it's very prog to be so reliant on classical covers, but I have admittedly overlooked it with like Devil's Triangle, Toccata, Cans and Brahms, Horizons, etc. I guess I just feel those bands have justified their covers with BETTER original material, whereas with the Nice the original works aren't that special imo. 
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SteveG View Drop Down
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Points: 20602 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2015 at 15:18
The Nice never floated my boat either but technically....ah, you know what I mean. Wink
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dr wu23 View Drop Down
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Points: 20619 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2015 at 15:31
I have the 2 cd Nice 'box set' and several pieces of vinyl from the old days but they never impressed me all that much either. I actually like their early album Emerlist Davjack the best and it was more psych than anything else...imo.
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Points: 13000 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2015 at 16:24
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^Hmm, micky has a good case with the Nice. After Davy O'list left, they were mainly Prog and predated KC. But they did not have that quintessential KC sound, if that's what your referring to.
 
The Nice were, as someone mentioned, nice; however, both The Moody Blues and Procol Harum offered rock with orchestral movements and themes during the same time period. The only difference was The Moodies and Procol actually sold albums.Wink


Edited by The Dark Elf - July 07 2015 at 16:25
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SteveG View Drop Down
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Points: 20602 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2015 at 16:31
^I don't think people took the Moody's and Procol as seriously as the Nice because I have a feeling that the Nice took themselves very seriously and offered little in the way of a top ten pop song. You could only hit the charts if you had that pop thing going on and the Nice didn't.
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Points: 65152 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2015 at 17:19
The Nice kicked ass all over the place--  they were magnificent, mistakes and Davy O'List not withstanding.   They were the first group to sound like a prog band when everyone else was looking at pretty colors in the sky.   Micky's right.
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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