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Topic ClosedDid the Beatles really Invent Prog? Or not?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2015 at 14:47
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

The Beatles' effect on rock music was profound. Yes, profound. Zappa felt compelled to offer a mirror copy of the Sgt. Pepper's album cover for We're Only In It For The Money (we only parody that which has the most influence and popularity). Brian Wilson nearly went mad trying to keep up with The Beatles. Mick Jagger and The Stones spent most of the 60s making albums in emulation of The Beatles, basically going from tree to tree and pissing on the same spots The Beatles had already left their mark.
 
And King Crimson have often noted their adoration of The Beatles: “The Beatles,” remarked Robert Fripp, “achieve probably better than anyone the ability to make you tap your foot first time round, dig the words sixth time round, and get into the guitar slowly panning the twentieth time”, and Bill Bruford commented, “It was felt after Sgt. Pepper anybody could do anything in music. It seemed the wilder the idea musically the better.”
 
So, as a proto-prog influence The Beatles were immense, but as others have commented nothing grows in a vacuum. The lyricism of Bob Dylan, the studio experimentation of The Beatles, the electrifying pyrotechnics of Hendrix, the mini-operas of The Who, the harmonies of The Beach Boys and the integration of orchestra and mellotron by The Moody Blues all were synthesized into rock within a few short eventful years, culminating in what eventually we would term prog-rock.

Best overall summation on this topic so far.....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2015 at 14:46
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2015 at 14:44
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2015 at 14:40
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Perhaps I should have titled this thread 'Who really invented Prog? The Beatles or Zappa?'
 


then you would have been hammered for incorrect choices.

The Nice in 1968.






Sorry micky, but the Nice did not record Tomorrow Never Knows in 1966, that was the Beatles.
 
Being the first fully Prog band does not necessitate that the band invented the progressive rock song.
 
Who ever did that is who invented Prog.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2015 at 14:32
Yes. They also invented psychedelia and toasters.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2015 at 14:21
Quote This song was actually played back in 1966! This version of the song simply showcases the theme. The original version of this song was actually played back in 1964, and can only be found on bootlegs. The official version of this song was released on Weasels Ripped My Flesh in 1970.




'64!





Quote Frank Zappa - 1963 Mount St.Mary's Concert
The Original Concert Program
MOUNT ST. MARY'S COLLEGE DEPARTMENT OF MUSIC presents THE

EXPERIMENTAL MUSIC OF FRANK ZAPPA Sunday, May 19, 1963 8.30 pm

Little Theater, Mount St. Mary's College

Program
I. Variables II for Orchestra
II. Variables I for Any Five Instruments Intermission
III. Opus 5, for Four Orchestras
IV. Rehearsalism
V. Three Pieces of Visual Music with Jazz Group Question and

Answer Period

Tracklist
00:00 (opening comments by Carlos Hagen) - 12:59
12:59 Piece #2 9:54 of Visual Music 1957 for Jazz Ensemble & 16mm
22:53 Piano Pieces from Opus 5 - 4:29
27:22 Collage #1 for Stringed Instruments - 3:44
31:06 2 Fragments of the Prepared Tape to be used in Opus 5 - 5:41
36:47 Opus 5 - 15:09
51:56 (question and answer session) 8:52
1:00:48 (closing comments by Carlos Hagen) 0:34

FZ on an interview from the 1992 Zappa! tribute magazine (Keyboard and Guitar Player):

Actually, the first time I had any of it ["serious" music] performed was at Mount St. Mary's College in 1962. I spent $300 and got together a college orchestra, and I put on this little concert. Maybe less than a hundred people showed up for it, but the thing was actually taped and broadcast by KPFK. (...) By the time I graduated from high school in '58, I still hadn't written any rock and roll songs, although I had a little rock and roll band in my senior year. I didn't write any rock and roll stuff until I was in my 20s. All the music writing that I was doing was either chamber music or orchestral, and none of it ever got played until this concert at Mount St. Mary's.

Rip Rense on the liner notes of The Lost Episodes:

It took place in 1963 at, of all pastoral places, lovely Mount St. Mary's College, a private Catholic institution perched in the lush Santa Monica Mountains above West Los Angeles. (...) The program included a piece called "Opus 5," aleatoric works that required some improvisation, a piece for orchestra and taped electronic music, with accompanying visuals in the form of FZ's own experimental 8mm films (Motorhead Sherwood described one such film depicting the Los Angeles County Fair carnival, double exposed with passing telephone poles).






Edited by Svetonio - July 07 2015 at 14:39
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2015 at 14:08
I warn you all I do NOT approve of the bestiality referenced in this video, but if ya'll love early Zappa and have not heard The Fugs, they arguably beat early Zappa at his game. Released March 1966. Definitely more ahead of its time than anything on Freakout.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2015 at 13:52
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ I have a Mothers bootleg from '67 Stockholm ('Tis the Season to be Jelly) and some of the material is very, very close to progressive rock, in fact it's about as prog as ItCotCK


Yeah, I've heard the King Kong suite from Uncle Meat. "Dog Breath" is another good proggy tune from that and one of my favorites from Zappa. If you ask me, King Kong is early jazz fusion (quite a feat in itself) with very small hints of classical (negligible really if you consider most jazz artists were influenced somewhat by classical). I wouldn't quite say it's full on prog in the same way ItCotCK is, but it is cool to know he was playing this stuff live in '67. I still think "Brown Shoes" is probably a better example of '67 proto-prog. I side with people saying Zappa was definitely an influence, but a little too avant-garde and reliant on humor to be what we usually consider prog. BUT no doubt Zappa and these other proto-prog artists were totally progressive in spirit. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2015 at 13:23
Originally posted by Gentle Yes Gentle Yes wrote:

  I think there is no doubt that psychedelic rock was the predecessor of progressive rock, i mean you can clearly hear some progressive elements in mid 60's bands... Now I think that saying that SFF was the first prog song (or album) is farfetched. The Beatles were a classic psychedelic-pop band, maybe too classic.. don't get me wrong, i like the Beatles, who doesn't? but i couldn't say that they have anything to do with prog.. SFF is maybe a little bit different from ohter Beatles songs as they wrote it in the psychedelic-colours-drugs etcetera era. Nevertheless it's just another Beatles song.
   It's too difficult to say with precision who wrote the first prog song or album.. most say it was Zappas Freak out! but Strawberry Alarm Clock who formed in 1966 (same year as Freak out!) have a lot more prog elements (for me). The same goes for The 13th floor elevators who existed before Freak Out!
  Anyway.. i think most of you would agree that finding the actual prog birth is almost impossible... The only thing i can say for sure is GENTLE GIANT RULE. LOL

Completely agree Clap

And yes, Gentle Giant does rule, they deserve more appreciation. Thumbs Up 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2015 at 13:16
  I think there is no doubt that psychedelic rock was the predecessor of progressive rock, i mean you can clearly hear some progressive elements in mid 60's bands... Now I think that saying that SFF was the first prog song (or album) is farfetched. The Beatles were a classic psychedelic-pop band, maybe too classic.. don't get me wrong, i like the Beatles, who doesn't? but i couldn't say that they have anything to do with prog.. SFF is maybe a little bit different from ohter Beatles songs as they wrote it in the psychedelic-colours-drugs etcetera era. Nevertheless it's just another Beatles song.
   It's too difficult to say with precision who wrote the first prog song or album.. most say it was Zappas Freak out! but Strawberry Alarm Clock who formed in 1966 (same year as Freak out!) have a lot more prog elements (for me). The same goes for The 13th floor elevators who existed before Freak Out!
  Anyway.. i think most of you would agree that finding the actual prog birth is almost impossible... The only thing i can say for sure is GENTLE GIANT RULE. LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2015 at 12:53
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by PrognosticMind PrognosticMind wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ I have a Mothers bootleg from '67 Stockholm ('Tis the Season to be Jelly) and some of the material is very, very close to progressive rock, in fact it's about as prog as ItCotCK


Epic win. Thanks for this!
Thanks to Atavachron!
Well, Frank Zappa had nothing to do with that melancholic, pastoral and moony English Symphonic rock that was born with above mentioned Strawberry Fields Forever, and which in 70s become the most popular subgenre of the progressive rock, but it's undebtedly that The Mothers of Invention was the very first progressive rock band ever.
Perhaps I should have titled this thread 'Who really invented Prog? The Beatles or Zappa?'
 
I have a sixties (?) bootleg of the Grateful Dead that sounds 'pretty damn prog', so are the Dead a prog group? I don't think so.
 
Let's get back to the revered MOI album Freak Out! Dean went out of his way to expand on the meaning of archetype, to my benefit. Exactly what was archetypal about the music on Freak Out!? And who did it influence? KC? Genesis? Yes? Or anyone else shortly after it's release? No one that I can think of that enjoyed anything resembling mass popularity. Can and Pere Ubu's influences came from albums put out a few years later.

Who did Freak Out influence?... The Beatles for one LOL


Edited by TGM: Orb - July 07 2015 at 12:54
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2015 at 12:37
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Perhaps I should have titled this thread 'Who really invented Prog? The Beatles or Zappa?'
 


then you would have been hammered for incorrect choices.

The Nice in 1968.

and if you hear anything of Zappa or the Beatles in Ars Longa Vita Brevis.. let me know. I've never heard a smidge of it.

This was ... the right anwer IMO as far as the talking points so far.. excellent post Clap

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

The Beatles' effect on rock music was profound. Yes, profound. Zappa felt compelled to offer a mirror copy of the Sgt. Pepper's album cover for We're Only In It For The Money (we only parody that which has the most influence and popularity). Brian Wilson nearly went mad trying to keep up with The Beatles. Mick Jagger and The Stones spent most of the 60s making albums in emulation of The Beatles, basically going from tree to tree and pissing on the same spots The Beatles had already left their mark.
 
And King Crimson have often noted their adoration of The Beatles: “The Beatles,” remarked Robert Fripp, “achieve probably better than anyone the ability to make you tap your foot first time round, dig the words sixth time round, and get into the guitar slowly panning the twentieth time”, and Bill Bruford commented, “It was felt after Sgt. Pepper anybody could do anything in music. It seemed the wilder the idea musically the better.”
 
So, as a proto-prog influence The Beatles were immense, but as others have commented nothing grows in a vacuum. The lyricism of Bob Dylan, the studio experimentation of The Beatles, the electrifying pyrotechnics of Hendrix, the mini-operas of The Who, the harmonies of The Beach Boys and the integration of orchestra and mellotron by The Moody Blues all were synthesized into rock within a few short eventful years, culminating in what eventually we would term prog-rock.



The Beatles indirectlly by their creativity, massive influence, and overall material success...laid the foundation by giving artists the freedom of the medium to explore oh which many in England in the late 60's ran with.

Zappa was a leading avant guarde artist.. had really very little to do with prog. Of course we have embraced him..as we have the music of RIO-AVANT...ut don't confuse him with prog. He wasn't...




Edited by micky - July 07 2015 at 12:38
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2015 at 11:35
The Beatles' effect on rock music was profound. Yes, profound. Zappa felt compelled to offer a mirror copy of the Sgt. Pepper's album cover for We're Only In It For The Money (we only parody that which has the most influence and popularity). Brian Wilson nearly went mad trying to keep up with The Beatles. Mick Jagger and The Stones spent most of the 60s making albums in emulation of The Beatles, basically going from tree to tree and pissing on the same spots The Beatles had already left their mark.
 
And King Crimson have often noted their adoration of The Beatles: “The Beatles,” remarked Robert Fripp, “achieve probably better than anyone the ability to make you tap your foot first time round, dig the words sixth time round, and get into the guitar slowly panning the twentieth time”, and Bill Bruford commented, “It was felt after Sgt. Pepper anybody could do anything in music. It seemed the wilder the idea musically the better.”
 
So, as a proto-prog influence The Beatles were immense, but as others have commented nothing grows in a vacuum. The lyricism of Bob Dylan, the studio experimentation of The Beatles, the electrifying pyrotechnics of Hendrix, the mini-operas of The Who, the harmonies of The Beach Boys and the integration of orchestra and mellotron by The Moody Blues all were synthesized into rock within a few short eventful years, culminating in what eventually we would term prog-rock.


Edited by The Dark Elf - July 07 2015 at 12:02
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2015 at 10:04
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by PrognosticMind PrognosticMind wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ I have a Mothers bootleg from '67 Stockholm ('Tis the Season to be Jelly) and some of the material is very, very close to progressive rock, in fact it's about as prog as ItCotCK


Epic win. Thanks for this!
Thanks to Atavachron!
Well, Frank Zappa had nothing to do with that melancholic, pastoral and moony English Symphonic rock that was born with above mentioned Strawberry Fields Forever, and which in 70s become the most popular subgenre of the progressive rock, but it's undebtedly that The Mothers of Invention was the very first progressive rock band ever.
Perhaps I should have titled this thread 'Who really invented Prog? The Beatles or Zappa?'
 
I have a sixties (?) bootleg of the Grateful Dead that sounds 'pretty damn prog', so are the Dead a prog group? I don't think so.
 
Let's get back to the revered MOI album Freak Out! Dean went out of his way to expand on the meaning of archetype, to my benefit. Exactly what was archetypal about the music on Freak Out!? And who did it influence? KC? Genesis? Yes? Or anyone else shortly after it's release? No one that I can think of that enjoyed anything resembling mass popularity. Can and Pere Ubu's influences came from albums put out a few years later.
 
And why should this album be considered full blown progressive rock instead of Proto Prog?
 
If it comes down to a question of the Beatles vs Zappa, as who had the greater influence on progressive rock, the only thing I can say is "Frank who?" (With all due respect, to keep things civil and fun.)
 
Freak Out
 Jesus, Really?
 
And if it comes to the fact that Freak Out! is a concept album,  both Woody Guthrie and Frank Sinatra beat Zappa to it.


Edited by SteveG - July 07 2015 at 11:41
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2015 at 09:17
Some words of Peter Hammill about Tomorrow Never Knows:    

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJJ7gQBdrZw
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2015 at 05:23
Originally posted by PrognosticMind PrognosticMind wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ I have a Mothers bootleg from '67 Stockholm ('Tis the Season to be Jelly) and some of the material is very, very close to progressive rock, in fact it's about as prog as ItCotCK


Epic win. Thanks for this!
Thanks to Atavachron!
Well, Frank Zappa had nothing to do with that melancholic, pastoral and moony English Symphonic rock that was born with above mentioned Strawberry Fields Forever, and which in 70s become the most popular subgenre of the progressive rock, but it's undebtedly that The Mothers of Invention was the very first progressive rock band ever.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2015 at 03:51
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ I have a Mothers bootleg from '67 Stockholm ('Tis the Season to be Jelly) and some of the material is very, very close to progressive rock, in fact it's about as prog as ItCotCK


Epic win. Thanks for this!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2015 at 02:44
Can I just say no then leave without defending my position ;)

Prog was always a bit of a polyvalent beast. Some of it emerged from British blues groups like The Graham Bond Organisation, some of it was driven by electric blues, some of it (such as PG's vocals or The Crazy World of Arthur Brown) by soul. I think the whole Beatles -> prog thing is kind of a short hand for the ton of psychedelia that influenced different bits of the prog rock borg.

---

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ I have a Mothers bootleg from '67 Stockholm ('Tis the Season to be Jelly) and some of the material is very, very close to progressive rock, in fact it's about as prog as ItCotCK



That is superb.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2015 at 01:18
Originally posted by aglasshouse aglasshouse wrote:

I feel that the Beatles were not really much more than a sixties boy band. They had some interesting compositions for the time, but they really never escalated more than that. Maybe sometimes praise them a little to highly for something that wasn't that amazing.


Hmmm...

Typical 60's boy band music...?




Edited by Windhawk - July 07 2015 at 01:19
Websites I work with:

http://www.progressor.net
http://www.houseofprog.com

My profile on Mixcloud:
https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2015 at 00:45
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ I have a Mothers bootleg from '67 Stockholm ('Tis the Season to be Jelly) and some of the material is very, very close to progressive rock, in fact it's about as prog as ItCotCK

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