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Topic ClosedWhy has Renaissance gone obscure?

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rogerthat View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 21 2015 at 22:47
Aha, Annie with a boycut (sort of)! LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 21 2015 at 22:50
Did they happen to perform the title track of Camera Camera at the show you attended?  Now that track, I likey!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 21 2015 at 23:08
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Did they happen to perform the title track of Camera Camera at the show you attended?  Now that track, I likey!

honestly, I hardly remember any of the tracks.  I don't remember Camera Camera, but for some reason I think they did Faeries and I'm almost positive they did Tyrant Tula, which got a lot of radio play in Ottawa.  I also remember that they did Northern Lights and ASFAS and finished with Ashes are Burning.  I'm assuming they also did Mother Russia and somehow I think they did Midas Man
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 21 2015 at 23:19
here's setlist I found from 1982, but it doesn't mean it's exactly what I saw.  It's also got 2 "unknowns" !

Here is one from 1981 that's similar

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 21 2015 at 23:23
and Roger, check out this 1978 setlist.  What's not to like?   I wonder if they ever did "Kindness at the end" live

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 21 2015 at 23:24
Yeah, that's like a near perfect setlist. I guess the 1978 Lancaster concert (up on youtube) has this set list (sans Ashes are burning which would almost certainly have been played as the encore).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2015 at 02:09
I love Camera Camera. Aside from the 80's ideals, still a marvellous album that still holds on to many Prog aesthetics. Camp did an amazing job on bass.
I even like Time-Line a lot.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2015 at 06:35
I'am trying to understand Camera Camera... because, sincerely, if someone said to me "Camera Camera is the Under Wraps of Renaissance, or the 90125, or... etc etc" I would disagree vehemently.

There is something quite unique in the album - the only mixture of pop and prog that sounds succesfull to me. Tyrant-Tula and Okishi-San are not only interesting but great tracks.

Anyway, I'am still trying to understand my own thoughs.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2015 at 07:20
Well, I think Discipline is quite a brilliant amalgam of pop and prog.  Not pop, but new wave, but basically what was popular then.  

I have no idea about Under Wraps but 90125 gets a bad rep in prog circles.  It does have cheesy production but songs like Leave It are quite interesting.  

There is a difference, though, between 90125 and Camera Camera and imo it's something else.  90125 sounds like Yes updated and abbreviated for the 80s.  Yes had a lot of catchiness early on, say around Yes Album or Fragile.  In between, through TFTO-Relayer, that catchiness got submerged as their compositions got increasingly complex.  But as a follow up to Drama, it doesn't really come across as a volte-face to me, as in, like, "I can't believe that Yes made this album".  I can see how somebody who skipped straight from CTTE to 90125 might think so but 90125 following Drama isn't such a great surprise.

Whereas, Camera Camera following Azure D'Or is a very big surprise.  AZD was an effort at something 'commercial' in the words of Annie Haslam but it is commercial in a kind of old fashioned British sense.   Maybe that's why it didn't do well.  It's pretty square...the sort of album that you'd get if you cut out all the expansive interludes from Novella and also straightened the hell out of complex tunes like Can You Hear Me until it fits the requirements of pop.  Camera Camera was Renaissance embracing the 80s full on.  It was pretty risky in that sense, a lot riskier than what Yes or Genesis did, where they gradually changed their sound until it blended with the 80s.  Renaissance just pressed the reset button and poof! they had a totally new sound.  Bonjour Swansong evokes the old Renaissance.  Remember has a lovely melody (evokes Yaman Raag somewhat for this Indian listener, BOC's Here Comes that Feeling is another song which does that for me), one of Ren's finest drowned in Gosling's tones which are strictly hit or miss (entirely in the miss zone for me).  But stuff like the title track, Jigsaw or Running Away From You has no precedence in the Renaissance canon.  The very attitude Annie evokes on the title track is completely removed from her generally angelic, melancholic but uplifting character.  

The problem I have with much of this album is in the execution.  The title track is absolutely spot on in executing this bold new approach of Renaissance, but the others are much less convincing, esp Running Away.  Okichi San is nice and would have liked to see them do more such songs during that period.  I find it to be a frustrating album; in songs like the title track or Okichi San they seem to hit the bulls eye in terms of embracing the 80s in a way that still works for them.  At other times, they sound like a 70s band trying to come to terms with the 80s.  I like the audacity and playfulness but wish the final output could have been better.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2015 at 07:55
^^Oh, yes, Discipline! Agree with you.

Actually, I guess that I agree with you, Roger... but I didnt have though on the processual level you put it (correctly), I was more analysing the music itself. And what works in a album always talk to me a lot more than what didnt work. So, with three great tracks (Camera Camera, Tyrant-Tula and Okichi San) the album already make enough for me to wonder about him.

As I said, I am still trying to work out what I think about it. You're completly right in thinking about in processual terms, I'll be thinking around that as well.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2015 at 07:58
The comparison with Under Wraps and 90125 was a bit forced, but it was just to say that Camera Camera has, perhaps, something different from the "And this album is where they turn into pop".

Not saying that everyone agree with the two examples, but it is the more "recognizable" (perhaps I should choose Genesis, but, as you point out, their turn was more slow).


Edited by GKR - October 22 2015 at 07:58
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2015 at 08:07
Oh, not at all, I get that comparison completely.  I was just trying to bring out why, as you said, Camera Camera is different.  It is different for the sheer amount of risk a band generally considered relatively staid took on.  And as far as rating the album goes, I personally do not consider Okichi or Bonjour as 'great' tracks.  Nice, is how I put it.  The title track blew me away the very first time I heard it.  Can't say any other track off CC had that effect on me.  So, comparing it with Discipline, not so risky for Fripp since he was already moving in that direction through his collaborations with Talking Heads but risky to commit the KC name to such an album - the difference is Discipline is so much more focused. They found the niche they wanted to exploit and stuck with it for the entire album.  Camera Camera is kind of confused.  The album thereafter would be very focused but unfortunately entirely in the pop direction.  Maybe an album with either daring, off beat tracks like the title track of Camera Camera or an album with Okichi San like tracks, either would have worked better than trying to do a mix of styles which seems to suggest the band themselves weren't sure which way to go. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2015 at 09:12
Camera Camera is definitely flawed IMO.  A perfect example is what they do to the last few minutes of the otherwise beautiful "Remember".  But I don't specifically have a problem with the group having one foot in their classic period and another in the "future".  To that end, "Tyrant Tula" works really well for me.  You didn't mention "Ukraine Ways" Roger, but I thought that was the most like what had come before, and in many ways better than Azure D'Or's more involved tracks.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2015 at 09:19
Ukraine Ways relates to Renaissance's classic sound the way 90125 does to Yes's classic sound:  the elements of the old style are there but drenched in 80s tones.  I think I don't react well to their 80s sound because I like this band mainly for the tones.  With Yes, I actually endure Howe's tone (which I don't like) on the 70s recordings and am definitely not a fan of Anderson's vocals; I like the substance of their style, really, which is not gone entirely on 90125.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2015 at 09:35
^^ Roger that, Rogerthat.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2015 at 09:48
I don't remember having that reaction to Ukraine Ways at all, but maybe I embraced the 1980s sound more than I realized.  Tongue 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2015 at 09:50
When all is said and done, you lived through the time.  I didn't...I mean, I sort of did but spent my infancy in the 80s.  My first vivid memories of music date to the 90s.  I like very little 'regular' 80s music...prefer either the jazz-rock/sophisto pop side like Prefab Sprout or Aztec Camera or the heavy metal side.  Also, really bold, experimental albums like Kate Bush's The Dreaming but with those albums, the sound matters little imo.

Edited by rogerthat - October 22 2015 at 09:51
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2015 at 10:09
I have one Aztec Camera CD which I bought when I mistook them for Aztec Two Step Unhappy

There was a song called Black Lucia that I LOVE.  Simply a beautiful ballad
Prefab sprout - there are 4 tracks in a row from "Two Wheels Good" that are among the best of anything from the 1980s


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2015 at 10:13
Oh, Black Lucia...just googled it and it's from a 1993 album.  Haven't even heard it.  The only one that I have is High Land Hard Rain, their 1983 album, which has some very fine acoustic guitar.   

Yup, Two Wheels Good, released as Steve McQueen in the UK.  Indeed, stretches of that album are up there with anything in the 80s.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2015 at 12:18
how would you recommend I keep track of the setlist without a switched on phone?  sticky notes and pen?
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