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A Person
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 10 2008
Location: __
Status: Offline
Points: 65760
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Posted: November 05 2016 at 09:04 |
javajeff wrote:
octopus-4 wrote:
My personal opinions:
The occupation of Palestine is illegal and a violation of human rights. |
What laws are you referring to?
FYI:
We are just human beings living on this Molten ball of rock, and we do
not really own anything. The people that can defend land, gets the
land. Civilizations have fallen before. What about animal
rights? |
So if someone broke into your house pointed a gun at
you and said "this house is now mine, get out or die", you would be
completely ok with that?
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tszirmay
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: August 17 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 6673
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Posted: November 05 2016 at 11:54 |
So I guess the Israelis need to pack up and leave ? In your opinion, they are just European colonists right? If so, you need to 1- read unbiased historical materials and not the 'news' 2- Travel to the Holy land and see for yourself. This apartheid argument is the most laughable comment. Sagi lives there, ask him. He doesn't necessarily agree with his government but he has eyes, a sharp brain and great musical taste. The occupation of Palestine is legal (called 'occupied territories' for a reason= war.). 1948 Israeli Independence was ratified by a UN majority, and there are no human rights violations at all, except rockets being lobbed by poor citizens in frustration. So if someone Palestinian terrorist broke into your house pointed a gun at you and said "this house is now mine, get out or die", you would be completely ok with that?.
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13600
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Posted: November 05 2016 at 12:30 |
This thread needs moving to the General Discussions part of the site. It has moved beyond views on Waters to a good old fashioned argument about Israel and Palestine.
Nothing wrong with that at all, but not a Prog Lounge topic, IMO.
Anyway, my own ten penorth worth. Palestinians desperately need a leader, or leaders, with the vision, guts, and authority to be able to negotiate a lasting peace with a similarly minded Israeli government. It is worth reminding ourselves here that Israel is still the only true democracy in the Middle East, and, whilst I am not an admirer of Netanyahu, his continued stewardship, to my mind, stems from the fact that Israeli citizens, in large enough numbers, see him as a bulwark against terrorism. In other words, he is the product of the wider malaise in the region. A more reasonable Palestinian leadership might, just might, bring about a change in Israeli attitudes and see Benyamin as what he is, an old fashioned conservative with no interest whatsoever in reaching a genuine rapport. Of course, at present, there is absolutely nobody there who wants a genuine rapport.
Israel has a right to exist. It should also be repeated that there are many Israeli Palestinians who play a full part in Israeli culture, establishment, employment, in all respects barring military service. They enjoy the freedoms and riches which their citizenship bring. Is it too much to hope for that, one day, a maturation in politics on the other side of the fence might extend such rights to all in the sub-region?
The trouble here is that individuals such as Waters, and various organisations, do not help. They talk constantly of Palestinian "victim hood", without ever understanding that solidarity with working people under the cosh in Palestine extends equally to those in Israel having to put up with the constant threat of violence and death, extending, even, to the death of statehood.
In the UK, Blair (for all his faults), and, to give him due credit, his predecessor as Prime Minister, John Major, recognised that the thinking in nationalist and republican communities in Northern Ireland had changed. A maturation in the political thinking, with leaders prepared to think and talk, rather than bomb and kill, in that community offered the opportunity for peace. It was taken. It would have been easy for the UK to have battered the republicans into submission, which, at that stage, could have been done. They were tired, and battered.
That never happened. Both sides worked their backsides off for a peace process, and even dragged in Unionist stalwarts such as Ian Paisley, previously the antithesis of reason.
It is possible. Unfortunately, I cannot see this happening in the near future. In the interim, I will say this. Israel's existence as a state is a matter of fact. Rightly, by the way. They have every right to defend themselves against wanton aggression. The Palestinians need to grow up politically and seek some good old fashioned peace, with equal rights and participation in a mature political process.
The above comments are not from an immature political idealist, but rather those of someone who is tired of extremes on all sides of all political debates. We need to grow up, desperately. Not just in the Middle East, but across the world.
Edited by lazland - November 05 2016 at 12:31
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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tszirmay
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: August 17 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 6673
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Posted: November 05 2016 at 13:40 |
You are correct, Laz, this ongoing ,boring, factually inaccurate theory about the region is parroting old fallacies that seemingly do stand the test of time. We sadly live in a media-polluted age where no one has time or interest of WHY! Only who, what, where and when seems to rule the minds, at least on the Internet. The media are sensationalists and agents provocateurs of the worst order, no research, no on ground experience, no historical backup, nada! Waters is a sadly overblown artist who does and says what he wants because he can.
New Israeli prog band i need to check out, Aperco.
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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A Person
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 10 2008
Location: __
Status: Offline
Points: 65760
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Posted: November 05 2016 at 13:42 |
tszirmay wrote:
So I
guess the Israelis need to pack up and leave ? In your opinion, they are
just European colonists right? If so, you need to 1- read unbiased
historical materials and not the 'news' 2- Travel to the Holy land and
see for yourself. This
apartheid argument is the most laughable comment. Sagi lives there, ask
him. He doesn't necessarily agree with his government but he has eyes, a
sharp brain and great musical taste. The
occupation of Palestine is legal (called 'occupied territories' for a
reason= war.). 1948 Israeli Independence was ratified by a UN majority,
and there are no human rights violations at all, except rockets being
lobbed by poor citizens in frustration. |
If by
unbiased you mean western imperialist ideology, then no thanks fam. I
find it truly mind boggling people in this thread try to legitimize
their positions by defending imperialism and war. Did I accidentally
open Regressive Rock Archives?
So
if someone Palestinian terrorist broke into your house pointed a gun at
you and said "this house is now mine, get out or die", you would be
completely ok with that?. |
Terrorist orgs reacting to things
like state sanctioned colonization of the west bank are definitely
exactly the same as occupying forces, yup.
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tszirmay
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: August 17 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 6673
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Posted: November 05 2016 at 13:58 |
A Person wrote:
tszirmay wrote:
So I
guess the Israelis need to pack up and leave ? In your opinion, they are
just European colonists right? If so, you need to 1- read unbiased
historical materials and not the 'news' 2- Travel to the Holy land and
see for yourself. This
apartheid argument is the most laughable comment. Sagi lives there, ask
him. He doesn't necessarily agree with his government but he has eyes, a
sharp brain and great musical taste. The
occupation of Palestine is legal (called 'occupied territories' for a
reason= war.). 1948 Israeli Independence was ratified by a UN majority,
and there are no human rights violations at all, except rockets being
lobbed by poor citizens in frustration. |
If by
unbiased you mean western imperialist ideology, then no thanks fam. I
find it truly mind boggling people in this thread try to legitimize
their positions by defending imperialism and war. Did I accidentally
open Regressive Rock Archives?
So
if someone Palestinian terrorist broke into your house pointed a gun at
you and said "this house is now mine, get out or die", you would be
completely ok with that?. |
Terrorist orgs reacting to things
like state sanctioned colonization of the west bank are definitely
exactly the same as occupying forces, yup.
|
You are cute though.
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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tszirmay
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: August 17 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 6673
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Posted: November 05 2016 at 14:00 |
A Person wrote:
tszirmay wrote:
So I
guess the Israelis need to pack up and leave ? In your opinion, they are
just European colonists right? If so, you need to 1- read unbiased
historical materials and not the 'news' 2- Travel to the Holy land and
see for yourself. This
apartheid argument is the most laughable comment. Sagi lives there, ask
him. He doesn't necessarily agree with his government but he has eyes, a
sharp brain and great musical taste. The
occupation of Palestine is legal (called 'occupied territories' for a
reason= war.). 1948 Israeli Independence was ratified by a UN majority,
and there are no human rights violations at all, except rockets being
lobbed by poor citizens in frustration. |
If by
unbiased you mean western imperialist ideology, then no thanks fam. I
find it truly mind boggling people in this thread try to legitimize
their positions by defending imperialism and war. Did I accidentally
open Regressive Rock Archives?
So
if someone Palestinian terrorist broke into your house pointed a gun at
you and said "this house is now mine, get out or die", you would be
completely ok with that?. |
Terrorist orgs reacting to things
like state sanctioned colonization of the west bank are definitely
exactly the same as occupying forces, yup.
|
You mean like the USA? or Canada? South Africa gained its freedom through vision and strength. Ireland the same. These were once hopeless causes . Find a brave Arab politician and things will develop. We are all waiting.....
Edited by tszirmay - November 05 2016 at 14:02
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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javajeff
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 01 2009
Location: Florida
Status: Offline
Points: 467
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Posted: November 05 2016 at 14:11 |
A Person wrote:
So if someone broke into your house pointed a gun at
you and said "this house is now mine, get out or die", you would be
completely ok with that?
|
Of course not. I am part of this civilization which has structure and laws. I was speaking generally, because the earth was here way before people or civilizations. Civilizations that interact with each other, if they are civilized, should have similar laws and values. Owning property is in the fabric of your civilization. What if your civilization crumbles? Do you still own property? Humans have evolved, and there should be more respect toward other humans and civilizations.
Edited by javajeff - November 05 2016 at 14:17
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Sagichim
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: November 29 2006
Location: Israel
Status: Offline
Points: 6632
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Posted: November 05 2016 at 14:19 |
Laz you're definitely right, except for Netanyahu in the past 30 or 40 years Israel had many leaders who were willing to make peace and were willing to pay the cost, made realistic offers and a few crucial steps to build a foundation for a long term agreement. The problem was always the Palestinian leadership or the arab world getting in the way, they do not want to settle and does not accept the right for Israel to exist.
People who does not investigate the situation (and there is much to know, the situation is pretty complex and old) Like Octopus-4 only states the obvious bottom line. As far as he's concerned Israel control of the Gaza and the west bank, the palestinians live in poverty meaning Israel must be wrong or commits terrible crimes.
Try and think what does Israel gain from occupying these territories? It's not like we can go there.
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Kimdino
Forum Newbie
Joined: November 18 2016
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 9
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Posted: November 18 2016 at 21:18 |
I can understand javajeff's point but I am actually glad that Waters is the arsehole he is. Few will deny that Pink Floyd was one of the greatest bands ever, they certainly are to me. But where did that greatness come from?
For me, since he left, Floyd have become very bland. Lots of sweet, smooth music but little strikes my vitals. It's all noodling to me. Whereas KAOS, Amused to Death & Hitchhiking have all got hard-hitting bite, but not the musicality of Floyd. In my opinion it was the combination that made Floyd great. The great musicality plus Water's challenging nature.
A quick look at history shows that being a genius and being a dickhead go hand-in-hand an awful lot of the time. From Mozart to the present, and I'm sure well into the future. So I learnt to accept the nature of these guys, at the same time being glad that I only have to deal with their art and not them personally.
Plus, we spent many years encouraging Waters to attack whatever he didn't like, and praising him for it. From 'DSOM' to 'The Wall', even to 'The Final Cut'. So can we really blame him.
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