American Politics the 2016 edition

Gamemako wrote: SteveG wrote: Over simplified, my ass. When you have a hate monger that claims for years that the African American President is not an American citizen, in order to play up to a supposedly forgotten majority, fails to apologize for it when he drops his accusation 6 years later and is eventually voted in as President himself, then that's racism in it's most lethal and covert form. Might be worth your time to start reading about why conservatives are vulnerable to this sort of manipulation. I don't really care to argue whether Trump himself is a racist (he's said a lot of rather offensive things in the past, and since he never laughs, it's hard to give him the benefit of the doubt), but it is certainly not necessarily applicable to the population at large. The real issue is the cult of personality underlying it all. The Republican party hasn't just been goaded until they froth at the mouth; they have been conditioned to believe in not ideas but people. Trump supporters don't talk about how they are going to implement Social Security reform; they don't even have any reforms on offer. Instead, they talk about how Trump is going to fix things, writ large, and how liberals -- often pronounced as a portmanteau with insults, such as libtard or liberast -- are the root of all evil and want enact some straw man dastardly motive. You can chip away at ideas, like racism. Ideas have some fundamental basis in logical or moral reasoning. You can't chip away at a personality. That is what makes Trumpism truly dangerous.

Again, it's not Trump himself that's important to me but his base. Not understanding the Trump base is vital because its' the American base.

JJLehto wrote: npjnpj wrote: @ SteveG: so, out of interest: what about Trump's claims that Obama is a closet muslem and that he founded ISIS? I still find those hard to believe, but I'm certain you can enlighten me here. The Muslim thing has been going around since before he was even elected. Because of his name, his skin, and his upbringing which involved Indonesia, people thought he was a Muslim. I remember, pre election, seeing stories that Obama attended a Madrasa, I saw that on Fox News... As for ISIS, that was just usual Trump sh*t. He makes up stuff. He did say Obama created Isis, and btw "Crooked Hillary was a co-founder" He was taking the claim that Isis grew in the vacuum left in the region by Obama/Clinton actions and dumbed it down to 4th grade level "OBAMA CREATED ISIS!" The sick thing is, when someone tried to say "Oh you mean he created the void that allowed Isis to grow" Trump said no, he means Obama literally founded Isis. So to answer your question, Trump was taking an actual theory and dumbing it down and sticking to his guns, he never clarified or added nuance. It's his style. BTW a logic that I never understood because most pushers of it never once mention Iraq. This vacuum just happened out of nowhere, apparently! To be fair totally fair, Trump has also blamed Bush for the mess (but far less so). I forget the speech but I once saw him put Obama, Clinton and Bunch all together as for why we have Isis. f**ked up part is this isn't 100% wrong AND displays some more criticism of Bush than any other Republican will dare do.

Thanks for clarifying the Birther movement and ISIS claims, JJ. That saved me a lot of typing! 

SteveG wrote: BaldJean wrote: SteveG wrote: Jean, if you do not see a link between Obama's skin color and an unpresidented attack on his right to hold American office, they you are of the ilk of which I'm refering. Your own class of liberal dems that still think everything is the way it was polictically proir to Obama having been voted in as President.  I apologize for my harsh tone but I'm quite sick of this demagogue, and of people reacting to him and his base as if they had a purely forthright political agenda. first of all I am not a liberal democrat period. you should not jump to assumptions. second I don't believe at all that things are as they were before Trump became president. had you read my posts this should have been obvious to you. why else would I speak of a new kind of coup d'état? third: in a discussion it NEVER pays to use arguments that can easily be falsified. any Trump supporter would have held your claim of why Trump questioned Obama's right to become president against you and denounced you as a fanatic that sees racial conspiracy everywhere. mark that this is not my opinion; I am simply pointing out how what you said would be turned against you by a Trump supporter Yes, Jean you are right. I apologize again for assuming you to be a democrat, or even American.

I actually WAS American for the first 31 years of my life and lived in the USA for almost the first 24. after living in Germany for 7 years I decided to take up German citizenship because I wanted to be able to vote here, and since I don't have any of the necessary prerequisites to hold double citizenship under German law I had to give up my American citizenship

SteveG wrote: BaldJean wrote: SteveG wrote: BaldJean wrote: SteveG wrote: Jean, if you do not see a link between Obama's skin color and an unpresidented attack on his right to hold American office, they you are of the ilk of which I'm refering. Your own class of liberal dems that still think everything is the way it was polictically proir to Obama having been voted in as President.  I apologize for my harsh tone but I'm quite sick of this demagogue, and of people reacting to him and his base as if they had a purely forthright political agenda. first of all I am not a liberal democrat period. you should not jump to assumptions. second I don't believe at all that things are as they were before Trump became president. had you read my posts this should have been obvious to you. why else would I speak of a new kind of coup d'état? third: in a discussion it NEVER pays to use arguments that can easily be falsified. any Trump supporter would have held your claim of why Trump questioned Obama's right to become president against you and denounced you as a fanatic that sees racial conspiracy everywhere. mark that this is not my opinion; I am simply pointing out how what you said would be turned against you by a Trump supporter Yes, Jean you are right. I apologize again for assuming you to be a democrat, or even American. I actually WAS American for the first 31 years of my life and lived in the USA for almost the first 24. after living in Germany for 7 years I decided to take up German citizenship because I wanted to be able to vote here, and since I don't have any of the necessary prerequisites to hold double citizenship under German law I had to give up my American citizenship Thank you for clarifying that. I hope that you accepted my apology.

I was not even offended so no apology is necessary

SteveG wrote: Again, it's not Trump himself that's important to me but his base. Not understanding the Trump base is vital because its' the American base.

My point is that the base doesn't stand for race, or racism, or really much of anything. Opposing them on the basis of happenstance (like race) doesn't offer a means of addressing our divide, and it also plays into their corrupted narrative and galvanizes them around their own great nothing. If you just stoke the fires of this internecine culture war, eventually, the conflict is going nuclear.

Maybe it's unavoidable, though. Maybe the second American Civil War is coming, and the history books will write how the once-proud USA was balkanized by idiocy (and then the next chapter will be the cold war between the Republic of California and the People's Democratic Republic of Texas ).

That is kind of what Howard Stern says here.  http://money.cnn.com/2017/02/02/media/kfile-stern-on-trump/index.html

Trump wants an investigation because he really doesn't want to be president and is hoping that an investigation will make Hillary president.

rushfan4 wrote: That is kind of what Howard Stern says here.  http://money.cnn.com/2017/02/02/media/kfile-stern-on-trump/index.html Trump wants an investigation because he really doesn't want to be president and is hoping that an investigation will make Hillary president.

SteveG wrote: micky wrote: SteveG wrote: Warren? The age of reasonable politics is over. Time to get someone that appeals to blacks and latinos on a virseral level or have Trump rule for eight long years. Seriously. *spits coffee on the screen* I think we have differing views on Warren Steve.  She is a tiger man, and her politics.. exactly the type the that will appeal to the youth, minorities, and the emerging ascendant leftist wing of the party. As well as inpire them. She sure does for this old jaded soul.. I'd go through a brick wall for her... or toss any nativist bigoted bible thumper through a wall for her. She is like Bernie.. just more electable.... with much more personality and a hell of a lot more fire. Remember man.... .populism cuts for both sides.  If the party learns anything from 2016 it is that the age of middle of the road policis are over. As I said, if Warren goes in 2020... they will likely win... the numbers and demographics favor us.  As long as we don't repeat the mistake we made (in hindsight ) in 2016, but would foolish to ignore the lesson of moving forward, competent experienced uninspiring middle of the road dull politicians will lose in today's polarized and irrational country of ours. *spits coffee right back and despairs* Let's get real and stop living in a bygone dem vs repub nostalgia land. American politics has become the politics of Race. That is why Trump is President.  Until you, and others that think like you, understand that, we will have Hillary all over again. Except that that her name will be Jennifer Warren. And Trump will be still be at the wheel. And Dems like you will once again be scratching your heads at the end of 2019.

NO!!!!!  explain where those racists and bigots where in the past two elections where we elected a damned black man as President. Are you telling me it took a white women to bring out the bigots and racists..

they've always been there... what wasn't there in 2016... were democrats. Which means they are still there... they needed to be inspired to vote.. fear of Trump wasn't enough

Hillary lost millions of votes to Libertarians and the Greens and it cost her the election.. she lost the election. Trump did not win it as he picked up with Clinton dropped.

Thus my point.. if the Democrats learn from 2016 and go with Warren.. they win... they go with Booker or anyone else.. they risk losing again to a man who every 3rd word out of his mouth should have DQ'd him from most rational Americans ever voting for the motherf**ker...

as I said.. the days of rational politics are over. Populism is in.. and to you have to fight fire with fire. Warren and Trump head to head... bring the popcorn...