How do you gauge complexity? |
Post Reply | Page 12> |
Author | |
condor
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 24 2005 Location: Norwich Status: Offline Points: 1069 |
Topic: How do you gauge complexity? Posted: August 17 2017 at 11:26 |
What songs have you realised, "actually, that's quite complex"?
|
|
Larkstongue41
Forum Senior Member Joined: July 07 2015 Location: Eastern Canada Status: Offline Points: 1360 |
Posted: August 17 2017 at 12:06 |
|
|
"Larks' tongues. Wrens' livers. Chaffinch brains. Jaguars' earlobes. Wolf nipple chips. Get 'em while they're hot. They're lovely. Dromedary pretzels, only half a denar."
|
|
Barbu
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 09 2005 Location: infinity Status: Offline Points: 30845 |
Posted: August 17 2017 at 12:14 |
I don't.
|
|
Mascodagama
Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 5111 |
Posted: August 17 2017 at 13:38 |
I start by counting the time signature, and every time it changes I take a vodka shot. If I pass out before the song ends I mark it as 'complex' on my spreadsheet when I wake up.
Edited by Mascodagama - August 17 2017 at 13:39 |
|
Soldato of the Pan Head Mafia. We'll make you an offer you can't listen to.
Bandcamp Profile |
|
Argo2112
Forum Senior Member Joined: June 20 2017 Location: New Jersey Status: Offline Points: 4457 |
Posted: August 17 2017 at 13:57 |
There is a lot of music you can view as complex in the prog world.
I think the challenge is to craft something that is complex but still musical with out it feeling like just noise. I always thought Yes did a great job inter weaving complex parts together but still keeping everything melodic & cohesive. |
|
micky
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46828 |
Posted: August 17 2017 at 13:58 |
|
|
The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
|
|
Man With Hat
Collaborator Jazz-Rock/Fusion/Canterbury Team Joined: March 12 2005 Location: Neurotica Status: Offline Points: 166178 |
Posted: August 17 2017 at 17:19 |
By listening.
|
|
Dig me...But don't...Bury me
I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
|
ForestFriend
Forum Senior Member Joined: February 23 2017 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 680 |
Posted: August 17 2017 at 18:22 |
It's a complex process, but generally:
How many different things are going on at any one time. How much syncopation there is. How odd the time signatures are and how many times it changes, and how many tempo changes. Harmonic language - is it all within one key, or are there unusual modulations/chord changes? The length and amount of repetition. Of course, the really important thing is whether or not the complexity helps make a compelling piece of music that I want to listen to again or not. |
|
Atavachron
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Online Points: 64661 |
Posted: August 17 2017 at 18:27 |
Good question. There's complex and there's complex; Kayo Dot is not Planet X who are not Dimitri Loukianenko who is not Sleepytime Gorilla Museum. I guess rhythmic and structural complexity ~ intricate and unusual time signatures in intricate and unusual combinations ~ is what I listen for to identify complexity.
|
|
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
|
|
AFlowerKingCrimson
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 02 2016 Location: Philly burbs Status: Offline Points: 16526 |
Posted: August 17 2017 at 19:07 |
A lot of the early stuff by Gentle Giant. Apparently there are bands a bit more complex than them though.
|
|
HackettFan
Forum Senior Member Joined: June 20 2012 Location: Oklahoma Status: Offline Points: 7946 |
Posted: August 17 2017 at 21:15 |
If there's a lot going on simultaneously, that's one factor, especially if they differ in pitch or timing and duration. Another factor is whether duration of notes or duration of silence in between notes are unequal. One could count along with music and work out if there are any time signature changes, but, while I play guitar, I seldom do this and I doubt many people actually do this either if they're not attempting to play it themselves. However time signature complexity often relates once again to irregular metricality. As a guitar player, I am very well attuned to what is difficult or adventurous on guitar just by listening. I have no idea what is difficult for many other instruments.
I might also add that chords can be very simple or more complex. Most musicians can tell if 7th, 9th, 11th, or 13th chords are at least being used to some extent, even if it might take some time to thoroughly nail the whole progression down. Basic major/minor chords are rather easily recognized. Of course an easy cue that even a non-musician can use is whether distortion is being used; complex chords turn to mush with distortion. One also might be able to hear chord substitutions. Simple chords can be replaced by more complex chords or even by other simple chords in subsequent iterations of a progression without altering the overall contour of that progression. Simple chords could be used, but form more complex chords depending on what the base player is doing. I am not very good at detecting that admittedly (too much playing by myself in my bedroom). If one has an ear for dominant chords, diminished chords or 13th chords, these often co-occur with tritone substitutions, key changes, scalar changes, or modulations. Especially so, if it sounds Jazzy. Tritone substitutions allow previously bum or dissonant notes to come in and sound strangely good. A knowledgable musician may be sensitive to the insertion of dissonance, but if it's done right, a non-musician would normally be none the wiser. Edited by HackettFan - August 17 2017 at 22:00 |
|
A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now)
|
|
Manuel
Forum Senior Member Joined: March 09 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 12468 |
Posted: August 18 2017 at 08:15 |
I should try your method, it seems quite "Complex" and effective, lol. To me, complexity lies in the interweaving of melodies, together with orchestration and instrumentation, add a few far out arrangements and you have a complex, worth listening piece of music.
|
|
moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 16432 |
Posted: August 18 2017 at 08:35 |
Hi,
You know ... something strange ... sometimes the simplest thing is the most complex ... and then the most complex thing is by far the simplest thing ... I'm not sure that "defining" music or any art for that matter in terms of complexity is the right thing to do ... it takes away the ability to simply enjoy one sound, or one note ... the feeling of which could be so extensive as to make it complex and actually mean more than it really is ...
|
|
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
|
HackettFan
Forum Senior Member Joined: June 20 2012 Location: Oklahoma Status: Offline Points: 7946 |
Posted: August 18 2017 at 08:53 |
I noticed by the way that most of us looked at the title of the thread and ignored the OP, which asked for actual examples of music we hear as being complex. |
|
A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now)
|
|
andreol263
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 28 2014 Location: Terra de Cabral Status: Offline Points: 790 |
Posted: August 18 2017 at 09:08 |
Well, for me it's simple.
If i don't understand what's going on, nothing clicked in me, and the sound doesn't make sense, so it's pretty complex music, and that's the type of music that want to listen more, to try to understand it, like a challenge :) for some examples for this, i listened these albums sooo many times before even understanding ANYTHING, and later it grow on me like the best thing i've ever heard: Magma - Mekanik Destrukitvw Kommandoh Art Zoyd - Haxan Faust - Faust Satanique Samba Trio - Sangrou Koenjihyakkei - Viva Koenji!
|
|
|
|
progaardvark
Collaborator Crossover/Symphonic/RPI Teams Joined: June 14 2007 Location: Sea of Peas Status: Offline Points: 49033 |
Posted: August 18 2017 at 10:10 |
I use my intestines.
|
|
----------
i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions |
|
cstack3
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: July 20 2009 Location: Tucson, AZ USA Status: Offline Points: 6796 |
Posted: August 18 2017 at 14:21 |
My definition of complexity.... |
|
I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!!
|
|
hieronymous
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 27 2012 Location: Oakland, CA Status: Offline Points: 308 |
Posted: August 18 2017 at 23:00 |
How about "Isle of Everywhere" by Gong (from "You")? starts in 4/4 (or maybe 8/4 is more accurate), moves up a minor third (I think) every 8 measures, then when it gets to the original pitch, switches to 7/4 and starts the pattern over again - after another cycle it switches to 6/4, and after another cycle rides out on a single-chord vamp in 4.
I'm going to have to go play along with it again - it's been a while - I play bass so it's a great piece to play along with. I might have to correct my analysis too! Another good one from the same album is "Magick Mother Invocation" - not sure that I've ever actually "figured out" the time signature, but it fits the invocation, you just have to memorize it! I think that's part of the mystique of Gong - were they a hippie commune doing drugs? If so, how did they play such complex music? Although, Sherman Helmsley tells a story about when he met Daevid Allen thinking he would be a big pothead but he claimed he didn't do drugs... Edited by hieronymous - August 18 2017 at 23:00 |
|
Sean Trane
Special Collaborator Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Offline Points: 19706 |
Posted: August 19 2017 at 01:38 |
Most of the Gentle Giant tracks between ATT and Interview GG was the first band to sytematically (and somewhat absurdly) complexify their compositions... almost to the point of needlessness, because I believe some of their tracks might've gained from being a little simpler, to gain more accessibility towards the grand public (I know this wasn't their intention, though) That's what WTF'd me for almost 20 years, before I fionally "got it" and understood their point |
|
Tom Ozric
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2005 Location: Olympus Mons Status: Offline Points: 15916 |
Posted: August 19 2017 at 02:18 |
This is a most difficult question to answer !!
I think, now don't banish me for life, but, for Pop, Kajagoogoo have some complex things going on, especially with bass (Beggs, obviously) and keys. Also, some of the Tech / Death bands play stuff that generally sounds inhumanly possible. Magma are complex, Henry Cow are complex. It's generally in the ears of the listener.... |
|
Post Reply | Page 12> |
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |