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In The Court of The Crimson King is 51 Today!!!

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dr wu23 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2020 at 13:57
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

An effing great album....not 'dated' at all imho..it was 1969 in case people have forgotten. 
Compared to most of what was around then it was far more interesting...and entertaining.
Is it 'the album that started it all'...is it 'the beginning of prog rock'...? I have no idea ,but one could make a case for it without trying too hard.

BTW...the more important anniversary was last year...the 50th ...just pointing that out.
https://burningshed.com/king-crimson_itcotck-50th-anniversary_3cd_blu-ray
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I would agree that the music is not dated, being my all-time favorite prog album. But the album's strange reverb-less production does not age well. Oh, well.

I'm not too educated on production aspects...what do you mean by 'reverb-less' and was that commonly done back then and now?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2020 at 14:05
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

An effing great album....not 'dated' at all imho..it was 1969 in case people have forgotten. 
Compared to most of what was around then it was far more interesting...and entertaining.
Is it 'the album that started it all'...is it 'the beginning of prog rock'...? I have no idea ,but one could make a case for it without trying too hard.

BTW...the more important anniversary was last year...the 50th ...just pointing that out.
https://burningshed.com/king-crimson_itcotck-50th-anniversary_3cd_blu-ray
Wink 

I would agree that the music is not dated, being my all-time favorite prog album. But the album's strange reverb-less production does not age well. Oh, well.

I'm not too educated on production aspects...what do you mean by 'reverb-less' and was that commonly done back then and now?
I hadn't even noticed the Crimson King album was "reverb-less". To me, it's just a great album. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2020 at 14:18
Yes, a great album it still is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2020 at 14:26
Oddly enough it's not even really one of the biggest selling albums in prog history. It was released in 1969 and didn't go gold until 1977. Still waiting for it to go platinum. My guess is it must be around at least 800,000 copies by now. :P
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2020 at 14:31
^I know a lot of adults my age who are not aware of the album...or KC.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2020 at 14:44
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

^I know a lot of adults my age who are not aware of the album...or KC.
 
That's true in England too. I doubt if many people outside the progosphere would know who Robert Fripp is either - not unless they watch Celebrity Mr & Mrs, where he was announced as the husband of Toyah Wilcox, with no mention of King Crimson throughout the show. Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2020 at 14:56
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

^I know a lot of adults my age who are not aware of the album...or KC.


I remember a few years ago(maybe 3-5 years ago by now)talking to a guy at a bar environment where a band was playing. Yes was playing somewhere locally and the guy who was probably at least mid 50's at the time maybe late fifties so now maybe early 60's said he was thinking of seeing them or something. The important thing is he was well aware of who they were. I then mentioned something about King Crimson and the guy apparently never even heard of them. Not even just never heard them but never heard of them. I can understand some younger people who maybe aren't much into music(let alone prog)but come on this guy is of the age where if he knows Yes(and is maybe a fan)should at least have heard of King Crimson. I tried to explain to him(Bill Bruford the original Yes drummer was a member etc.) but he didn't seem interested. At the time I was dumbfounded. I have met and talked to people who were not big prog fans and not even prog fans at all really who at least heard of King Crimson. The guy imo was either just not much into music or living under a rock. That might sound snobby of me but that's how I feel. Then again I sort of initially heard of them by accident(my cousin liked them)but I grew up(as in teenage years)in the 80's not 70's. 

Also, I remember when I worked in a record department(this was 1994 so more like cds)a guy was looking through Genesis cds and seemed to like their trespass album. I then pointed him towards "in the court of the crimson king" telling him he should definitely check it out only to receive a blank stare. I sometimes I guess I just don't get it. It's like the old expression you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him(or her) drink.

These days "court" seems to be just about all over the place if you look for music recommendations and especially prog recommendations online. It's even in many non prog best of albums lists. I honestly don't see how most people won't eventually come across that red faced guy at some point unless they pay almost zero attention to music online. It has more ratings than any other prog album on rate your music for one thing(except maybe dark side and WYWH) and more ratings than any Yes record on allmusic. Also, it pops up when you search for not just prog albums online on google but also classic rock albums. Even close to the edge doesn't show up for that(you have to narrow it down more such as putting in 70's or prog). Interestingly though it was absent in the latest rolling stone top 500 list where as ctte did make it(at number 445).


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - October 12 2020 at 18:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenethlevine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2020 at 21:31
Back in the mid 70s, you still had to follow music beyond the singles charts to know King Crimson.  People who were into album rock pre 1975 knew them for sure.  But I knew people who didn't know them and were unable to appreciate them when I played In the Court for them. Although their 80s albums did quite well commercially, I still think they are best known, by most people who know them, for their first album. It's a case where the best known is the also the best IMO.  So your meeting someone that age who didn't know them isn't all that surprising, but for sure he wasn't a big music person back in the day, or he was into a totally different type of music, like maybe classical, or he just paid attention to the singles charts, which means not really a music person LOL.

And oh yes, it's a fantastic album that still sounds great.  The lyrics, while occasionally fantastical (like on the title cut) are beautiful, and at least 3 of the tracks are protest songs. (Schizoid, I Talk to the Wind, Epitaph).
I admit I don't listen to it that much anymore but when it comes on in my itunes shuffle I pay attention!


Edited by kenethlevine - October 12 2020 at 21:38
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2020 at 22:12
Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

Back in the mid 70s, you still had to follow music beyond the singles charts to know King Crimson.  People who were into album rock pre 1975 knew them for sure.  But I knew people who didn't know them and were unable to appreciate them when I played In the Court for them. Although their 80s albums did quite well commercially, I still think they are best known, by most people who know them, for their first album. It's a case where the best known is the also the best IMO.  So your meeting someone that age who didn't know them isn't all that surprising, but for sure he wasn't a big music person back in the day, or he was into a totally different type of music, like maybe classical, or he just paid attention to the singles charts, which means not really a music person LOL.

And oh yes, it's a fantastic album that still sounds great.  The lyrics, while occasionally fantastical (like on the title cut) are beautiful, and at least 3 of the tracks are protest songs. (Schizoid, I Talk to the Wind, Epitaph).
I admit I don't listen to it that much anymore but when it comes on in my itunes shuffle I pay attention!

Well, probably just a classic rock guy. I have talked to people a little older than me(though not necessarily originally from my area)who only knew "owner of a lonely heart" by Yes. Some people just get locked into what they already know and are into which is often from their youth which is often what their friends were into which explains why a lot of people my age aren't into Yes(and were never big fans). If their friends weren't into Yes or King Crimson or whoever they might not be very familiar with them(or in the case of KC not even heard of them). Some people live a very sheltered life. I guess for me the perplexing part is I live in the Philadelphia area which has a reputation of being a big prog town. This is the city where Yes had over 120,000 people in 1976 and UK had 50,000 in 1979. So based on that it makes it all the more odd. Maybe the guy wasn't from Philadelphia originally. I should have asked him if he heard of UK or even Frank Zappa or maybe even the Sex Pistols or the Velvet Underground. Hey they weren't played on the radio either. Lol. Frank maybe a little. Not sure.

As for the music itself I think most of it is very good. My only real problem is after maybe the three minute mark on moonchild. It starts to go into this meandering noodling. I know to some it makes sense but to me it's good to zone out to and not much else. I'm probably more tolerant of it now than I used to be but to be honest I much prefer the devil's triangle from the follow up album. The title track to "court" doesn't impress me as much as it used to either although I still like it. I just find it too repetitive. Maybe extend "I talk to the wind" or add a short instrumental piece and make the title track shorter by half. Oh well. As it is it's still a classic. There's no denying that.


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - October 12 2020 at 22:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2020 at 23:03
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

An effing great album....not 'dated' at all imho..it was 1969 in case people have forgotten. 
Compared to most of what was around then it was far more interesting...and entertaining.
Is it 'the album that started it all'...is it 'the beginning of prog rock'...? I have no idea ,but one could make a case for it without trying too hard.

BTW...the more important anniversary was last year...the 50th ...just pointing that out.
https://burningshed.com/king-crimson_itcotck-50th-anniversary_3cd_blu-ray
Wink 


I would agree that the music is not dated, being my all-time favorite prog album. But the album's strange reverb-less production does not age well. Oh, well.


I'm not too educated on production aspects...what do you mean by 'reverb-less' and was that commonly done back then and now?
Sorry doc, I missed this. Reverberation is a slight extension in sound that is usually added in the mixing phase to give instruments like drums more depth and a fuller, more realistic sound. The absence results in a dryer and more abrupt sound.

Edited by SteveG - October 12 2020 at 23:08
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenethlevine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 13 2020 at 07:04
I always thought the unique trebly tint to the drums was one of the great features of that album, in a good way
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 13 2020 at 07:08
The group purposefully avoided what they considered to be a pop album sound. Check out the drum sound in The Wake Of Poseidon title track! Sounds like it was recorded in a closet!  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hercules Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 13 2020 at 07:12
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Do we have to? Again? 3 star album for me.
 
I agree, but it's the best they've ever done.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 13 2020 at 07:18
Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

I always thought the unique trebly tint to the drums was one of the great features of that album, in a good way
There was also a lot of unusual recording signal manipulation, dropping out mid range frequencies here and there and pumping up the treble. On Lake's distortion box vocals on 21st Century S. M. for an example.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 13 2020 at 07:18
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

These days "court" seems to be just about all over the place if you look for music recommendations and especially prog recommendations online. It's even in many non prog best of albums lists. I honestly don't see how most people won't eventually come across that red faced guy at some point unless they pay almost zero attention to music online.

I think that is the point. A lot of people, even younger people, don't necessarily go online for music recommendations.  As in, they would rather get recommendations from friends on social media or only listen to the songs recommended by Spotify/Pandora/Youtube than visit websites such as this one or RateYourMusic and search/ask around.  I was BORN after the 70s and I know about these bands only because I looked up the wiki page on progressive rock which somehow led me to progarchives.  There's no way you will come to know of these bands, especially not King Crimson who don't have pop hits like Lonely Fart or Illegal Alien, unless you visited the web as opposed to social media.  And the web, like PA, is moribund.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 13 2020 at 08:20
I also think it's where you grew up, in the 70's. I grew up in So Cal and a lot of obscure rock and R&B/Funk I heard quite often. Nobody was listening to Maggot Brain back then, unless you knew who George Clinton was and most never made the connection to Parliament and Funkadelic. I learned about the connection from a guy in a record store, when he told me to buy Maggot Brain....Understand I was like 8-9yrs old, so not too much on my radar at that time, but he took an interest when I came in looking in the bins.

I vividly remember In the Court, mainly the cover art but I do remember hearing Schizoid on the radio and I knew some of the rock heads in my neighborhood had the record. KMET 94.7 played a lot of progressive rock and more obscure stuff in the 70s, but I also listened to more ethnic stations that played deep cuts of Funk and R&B, unfortunately this was mainly in the late evening, during the day it was the hits.

I am not surprised many people would not know this album, I do think it has become more noticed but only in the last 25yrs. I also think people who heard this album in '69 were probably closer to early 20s, so that puts them into early 70s today, and that demographic is not online talking about this album or anything they were doing in the late 60s. If you first heard it in late 70s early 80s I suspect it did nothing for you but set you off, like "what the heck is that krapp sounds like jazz but its not" and it probably did not hold anyone's attention, it was too young for it to be any bands inspiration. Whereas today you hear more musicians talking about the inspiration of it to them...........It took me a long time to get KC, I never liked their music but it began to grow on me in the 90s, but for me there are only a few albums that mean much to me or that I enjoy. 
I can spin In the Court any day of the week and I enjoy it all the time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenethlevine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 13 2020 at 09:07
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

The group purposefully avoided what they considered to be a pop album sound. Check out the drum sound in The Wake Of Poseidon title track! Sounds like it was recorded in a closet!  

I know Steve!  I couldn't believe how totally different the drums sounded on "in The Wake" compared to the debut.  It's like they went so far to the other extreme as to be weird in an opposite way
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 13 2020 at 09:22
And Michael Giles must be one of the most underrated drummers in prog. The guy was just a monster!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 13 2020 at 09:34
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

And Michael Giles must be one of the most underrated drummers in prog. The guy was just a monster!

It has been said that Neil Peart was a fan and claimed Giles influenced him.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 13 2020 at 09:39
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

These days "court" seems to be just about all over the place if you look for music recommendations and especially prog recommendations online. It's even in many non prog best of albums lists. I honestly don't see how most people won't eventually come across that red faced guy at some point unless they pay almost zero attention to music online.

I think that is the point. A lot of people, even younger people, don't necessarily go online for music recommendations.  As in, they would rather get recommendations from friends on social media or only listen to the songs recommended by Spotify/Pandora/Youtube than visit websites such as this one or RateYourMusic and search/ask around.  I was BORN after the 70s and I know about these bands only because I looked up the wiki page on progressive rock which somehow led me to progarchives.  There's no way you will come to know of these bands, especially not King Crimson who don't have pop hits like Lonely Fart or Illegal Alien, unless you visited the web as opposed to social media.  And the web, like PA, is moribund.

Lonely fart? Lol. Anyway, well I think there's a lot of people probably mostly younger who got more into or maybe even discovered prog through not just their friends but also facebook groups, reddit, on here or maybe some other social media platform. It's unlikely they know about it through the radio these days. Seeing Pink Floyd, Rush, Opeth, Dream Theater or Tool or whoever on the cover of PROG magazine is another possibility.
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