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If we ignore the technical brilliance?
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Logan View Drop Down
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

First of all, I'm not sure why threads over ten years old are being resurrected. 


sorry if my “I had a similar idea for a topic and would rather respond to an existing one than make a new one (offer stands for people PMing me if they want old threads unlocked if not that frequent a request)” was not a sufficient explanation. What more do you want to know and why are you concerned?
It’s common at forums, and it has been the same here, to favour building on existent topics than start new ones if one exists that is similar. There have been significant lulls in discussion and I had hoped that this might revive discussion a bit. And I do find interest in reading what people wrote one year ago, two years ago, ten or 15 years ago.

Edited by Logan - June 11 2023 at 20:23
Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me.
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Its just the tools of the trade but Moshkito aludes to it in a roundabout way, you can choose to leave it out or be as simple as you like as long as its a choice. Just simplistic because that's all you've got is not going to work. VDGG were/are great musicians and Floyd had the best guitarist in prog bar maybe Hackett but that's still very debatable!
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To me it sounds non-sensical to ignore technical brilliance in music. I get that for many people it is not the first thing they're interested in. But music is about playing instruments. That takes practice. Some people are good at it, some are not. Would we ignore that when it comes to other things? Would we watch two beginners trying to play tennis with the same interest as Djokovic vs. Nadal (for those interested in tennis to begin with)? 

I love technical brilliance. It is not the only factor that makes music enjoyable, but it is of vital importance to me, such as when it is totally absent, it is very unlikely that I'll enjoy the music at all. The OP mentions Pink Floyd - Animals as an example of music they enjoy. Good for you! There is plenty of technical brilliance on that album. 


Edited by MikeEnRegalia - June 12 2023 at 02:10
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"Those albums are quite complex. Just because simple melodies are incorporated into a tapestry of variations does not mean there aren't quite challenging complexities involved. In fact those three albums feature some of the most interesting complexities in all of prog."

Not sure if complexity in composition equals technical brilliance...

Edited by barbera - June 12 2023 at 03:20
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^ they are related. More complexity in composition makes the music harder to play, thus requiring more technical brilliance. I don't like the term "technical brilliance" to begin with - I prefer "musicianship". 
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Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

First of all, I'm not sure why threads over ten years old are being resurrected. 


sorry if my “I had a similar idea for a topic and would rather respond to an existing one than make a new one (offer stands for people PMing me if they want old threads unlocked if not that frequent a request)” was not a sufficient explanation. What more do you want to know and why are you concerned?
It’s common at forums, and it has been the same here, to favour building on existent topics than start new ones if one exists that is similar. There have been significant lulls in discussion and I had hoped that this might revive discussion a bit. And I do find interest in reading what people wrote one year ago, two years ago, ten or 15 years ago.
I agree 100%.....I've often gone back 10-15yrs and re-read old threads and thought, maybe this one should be exhumed, might breathe some life here, never know.
Old can be new again..
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Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

...
But music is about playing instruments. That takes practice. Some people are good at it, some are not. Would we ignore that when it comes to other things?
...

Hi,

I think this is being exaggerated. There are many players that are "self-taught" and they have the technical ability to do a lot of things ... but we still stick to the old mentality that you have to do the 500 scales, at least 200 times each so you can "master" them.

Please go see one example in the Chris Squire master class series ... he was asked about a warm up, and he said he didn't have one, and then played the opening for CTTE, and asked if that was a proper warm up?

The idea is, that what we call "technical brilliance" is actually RELATIVE to the person playing it ... some have an easy time with this or that and don't need to practice it since it is a part of their daily walk and sleep, kind of thing. For others, the idea of playing this and that, is difficult and requires practice because it is not something that is "natural" for that person.

To consider this or that "technically brilliant" also means one other thing ... we are putting a standard on the music, that is unfair to many musicians, and on top of it, we are getting totally bizarre by even suggesting that all music has to have technical brilliance for it to be good, and become famous. 

IF this is all about "technical brilliance", I guarantee you that a computer will do better than any human ... and so, if all you want is mechanical music, go ahead ... you have already lost the taste for the beauty that is a human playing, regardless of how good they are.

Peter Michael Hamel has a joke in one of his books ... a man is playing an instrument and is saying ... "I got it, I got it" ... and folks around him are saying ... "what?" ... but it really specifies that 1) we're not listening. 2) we're disregarding what that man does for what we think music is. 3) we think ourselves superior because we have more strings and therefore combinations. 4) lastly ... we're stuck in a quagmire that we confuse everything with everything, and we don't even know what "music" is anymore ... 5) and worse ... I don't think we care since our ideas are more important than the music itself.

Where do you stand?
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

First of all, I'm not sure why threads over ten years old are being resurrected. 


sorry if my “I had a similar idea for a topic and would rather respond to an existing one than make a new one (offer stands for people PMing me if they want old threads unlocked if not that frequent a request)” was not a sufficient explanation. What more do you want to know and why are you concerned?
It’s common at forums, and it has been the same here, to favour building on existent topics than start new ones if one exists that is similar. There have been significant lulls in discussion and I had hoped that this might revive discussion a bit. And I do find interest in reading what people wrote one year ago, two years ago, ten or 15 years ago.

I agree 100%.....I've often gone back 10-15yrs and re-read old threads and thought, maybe this one should be exhumed, might breathe some life here, never know.
Old can be new again..


Absolutely, and before M@x set the site to auto-lock topics after a period of inactivity (had to do with server-load reputedly), searching for and reviving old topics, instead of making new ones that are similar or the same, of any age was actively encouraged. That's normal at forums. I have offered for many years to unlock old topics if done infrequently and if not problematic threads. And I have unlocked many for people. In Suggest New Bands this can be especially helpful. And to me it's interesting to look at these windows on the past, and to see those individuals who were active members even if one was not a contemporary and does not find any nostalgia value in this. The past is a part of the fabric of this forum/ community now -- I'm a holistic person. I'd rather it not be totally forgotten or neglected. It's helped to shape where we are now. And I will read a novel that is one hundred years old as happily as one written now if I'm interested in the content, same as forum threads. What I am not as keen on is when a lot of old topics just get bumped for the sake of being bumped seemingly, and that can drown out newer topics and newer conversations.

One can see that reviving this did bring on new posts and interest -- and I think had I created a new topic, which wouldn't have been the same but of a similar enquiry, I very doubt that it would had the same level of interest and participation. Mine would have been, what are some bands or band leaders that you don't consider technically virtuosos on their instruments but make amazing for you music -- I was going to go with Michael Gira of Swans.
Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me.
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Emotions are definitely important to me too, and technical brilliance alone is not equal to good music. On the other hand,
I seem to have seen often that particularly interesting moods and sounds, as opposite to the usual ones, require very
good technical skills.






Edited by David_D - June 12 2023 at 13:45
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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I wasn't complaining or trying to imply it shouldn't be done. I've probably done it myself to some extent. But when they are really old it just seems a bit weird to me. But hey, maybe weird is ok. After all, we are prog fans. Tongue



Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - June 12 2023 at 11:58
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^ It seems weird to me when suddenly seeing an old topic revived, and could be disconcerting (can take a little adjustment), but I definitely like weird. And I likely am more into the weirder stuff than most here (be it in music, film, comedy, not so much in cuisine...). You take your weirdo The Flower Kings stuff, and I raise you several "weirds" with The Residents -- of course what is weird can be in the eyes, ears, mouth and nose of the beholder, behearer, betaster and besmeller.
Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me.
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Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

^ It seems weird to me when suddenly seeing an old topic revived, and could be disconcerting (can take a little adjustment), but I definitely like weird. And I likely am more into the weirder stuff than most here (be it in music, film, comedy, not so much in cuisine...). You take your weirdo The Flower Kings stuff, and I raise you several "weirds" with The Residents -- of course what is weird can be in the eyes, ears, mouth and nose of the beholder, behearer, betaster and besmeller.

Hi,

BS ... I'm raising you by playing FAUST backwards!  LOL  Wink

That should shake some "technical" minds and send them to the loo? Big smile


Edited by moshkito - June 12 2023 at 12:33
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

^ It seems weird to me when suddenly seeing an old topic revived, and could be disconcerting (can take a little adjustment), but I definitely like weird. And I likely am more into the weirder stuff than most here (be it in music, film, comedy, not so much in cuisine...). You take your weirdo The Flower Kings stuff, and I raise you several "weirds" with The Residents -- of course what is weird can be in the eyes, ears, mouth and nose of the beholder, behearer, betaster and besmeller.


Hi,

BS ... I'm raising you by playing FAUST backwards!  LOL  Wink

That should shake some "technical" minds and send them to the loo? Big smile



?storrac tae uoy t'nod yhW

Damn, I fold (I needed the toilet anyway). Playing Faust backwards seems like something that Faust would do themselves, then reverse it again for a more serious mindf***. ;) :p
Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me.
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Where do you stand?

My point is that no matter how they did it, some people are better at what they do than others. Could be through formal training or through other means, that's not really important to me. Some people are better, and that makes the music more enjoyable to me. 
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What a blast from the past this old relic is.
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Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

^ It seems weird to me when suddenly seeing an old topic revived, and could be disconcerting (can take a little adjustment), but I definitely like weird. And I likely am more into the weirder stuff than most here (be it in music, film, comedy, not so much in cuisine...). You take your weirdo The Flower Kings stuff, and I raise you several "weirds" with The Residents -- of course what is weird can be in the eyes, ears, mouth and nose of the beholder, behearer, betaster and besmeller.

Wow. Don't get so defensive about it. I like weird stuff too anyway just maybe not as much as you. It's not a contest anyway. Wink
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^ Are you being serious? Defensive? Epic humorous banter fail on my part if you were.

Edited by Logan - June 12 2023 at 20:33
Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me.
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^ Emojis help a lot. Wink
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^ My lack of emoji, your use of winky emojis? Sorry, still not crystal clear to me. Please elaborate and be direct. Or don't, it's up to you.

I'll elaborate because I dislike misunderstandings and I would hate to be seen as sarcastic as I dislike sarcasm (meaning the mean-spirited use of irony meant to mock and belittle -- I mean, I won't say that I have never resorted to sarcasm, and I enjoy kinds of irony). I was unsure if you were joking because of the Mr. Winkys (a Mr Winky can be construed as something quite rude) which commonly means "I'm kidding". But not all use emoticons in a consistent manner. I'm not a fan of them. If you think I should have used one to avoid your assumptions, it did not occur to me that my response to your
Quote ...But when they are really old it just seems a bit weird to me. But hey, maybe weird is ok. After all, we are prog fans
would be construed in a negative light given the context. I don't hold weirdness as a badge of honour, but I do appreciate the weird, ergo reviving this thread instead of creating my own even if I had thought it might seem weird to some as that would not be something I would necessarily see as a negative -- I appreciate the absurd.

Mentioning my penchant for The Residents was my way of saying that some Prog tastes are weirder than others (of course I compared it to one you like because I was chatting with you -- not even banter as I was not teasing you) and I have been told here by more than one person that due t my love of things like RIO/Avant my tastes are weird. I love the quirky and I don't think makes me any better than those that don't. And it hadn't occurred to me that I had anything to be defensive about, so that comment of yours surprised me (was trying to understand your perspective). I gave you a thanks for that post I responded to, and it was sincere. Just as I would have hoped, but not expected, that you might have appreciated me trying to explain better my motivations and thoughts on reviving old topics instead of just making new ones. That because, assuming you read it, my first explanation in the post when I revived this was not sufficient apparently and you had written "First of all, I'm not sure why threads over ten years old are being resurrected." Anyway, shame this turned at all negative, was not my intent, but no big deal. Even for people whose messages we've read for years and so would think we could read well, it can still be very hard to discern intent and easy to have misunderstandings. There are no hard feelings on my part, but I know I appreciate it when people take the time to try to explain and so I am doing that even if it's not appreciated by you or any others. Doesn't matter.

Edited by Logan - June 12 2023 at 22:02
Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me.
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