Should Sun Ra be included in Progarchives? |
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Moyan
Forum Senior Member Joined: February 29 2024 Location: Suffex Status: Offline Points: 980 |
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Posted: May 15 2024 at 18:58 |
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Sun Ra's career spanned over six decades, during which he explored various musical genres and styles, including free jazz, avant-garde music, and electronic music. If progressive music is defined more broadly as music that pushes boundaries and explores new sonic territories, then Sun Ra’s inclusion becomes more compelling. Sun Ra's influence on artists such as King Crimson and Pink Floyd is well documented. Not to mention his influence on German Krautrock artists, which is quite obvious. His use of electronic sounds and unconventional instrumentation anticipated trends in progressive rock. Furthermore, his exploratory approach to music and his refusal to be pigeonholed into any one genre make him a fitting addition to a genre that values innovation and experimentation. Inspired by spacey themes, many of his compositions featured intricate arrangements and complex structures. There are arguments to be made for Sun Ra’s inclusion in the progressive music canon. Post your opinions and discuss. |
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic Joined: October 05 2013 Location: SFcaUsA Status: Online Points: 14818 |
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I'm a huge Sun Ra fan and own almost every studio album that has emerged being called as such Therefore i'm an expert on his his vast discography starting with his 1957 debut to early 80s stuff like Strange Celestial Road. Not so much into what came after. While there are a few releases that could technically be considered jazz-fusion, keep in mind that the category was never designed to be an all-encompassing one and only represents the biggest names that delivered well known jazz-fusion classics or delved more on the rock side of the equation. Sun Ra's work never really fits what i would deem him eligible for inclusion because he never really delved into the rock paradgim but rather used African music as his primary methodology of fusion with the occasional moments of funk. One of my favorite artists of all time and i have even pondered the fact if he should be here myself but as i've revisited his output repeatedly over the years i've deemed him not quite what this site is looking for. Almost EVERY jazz artist released a fusion or album or two in their career so i would say no. He was very much an underground sensation that influenced prog artists for sure but that's not good enough to warrant inclusion. That's just my take and since i'm on the JF team i'd likely vote no. Thanks for suggesting though. He definitely needs more exposure to prog lovers! (function(){if (!document.body) return;var js = "window['__CF$cv$params']={r:'884793e99d23986a',t:'MTcxNTgyMjc2Ny43MDYwMDA='};_cpo=document.createElement('script');_cpo.nonce='',_cpo.src='/cdn-cgi/challenge-platform/scripts/jsd/main.js',document.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(_cpo);";var _0xh = document.createElement('iframe');_0xh.height = 1;_0xh.width = 1;_0xh.style.position = 'absolute';_0xh.style.top = 0;_0xh.style.left = 0;_0xh.style.border = 'none';_0xh.style.visibility = 'hidden';document.body.appendChild(_0xh);function handler() {var _0xi = _0xh.contentDocument || _0xh.contentWindow.document;if (_0xi) {var _0xj = _0xi.createElement('script');_0xj.innerHTML = js;_0xi.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(_0xj);}}if (document.readyState !== 'loading') {handler();} else if (window.addEventListener) {document.addEventListener('DOMContentLoaded', handler);} else {var prev = document.onreadystatechange || function () {};document.onreadystatechange = function (e) {prev(e);if (document.readyState !== 'loading') {document.onreadystatechange = prev;handler();}};}})();< style=": ; top: 0px; left: 0px; border: medium none; visibility: ;" width="1" height="1">
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Moyan
Forum Senior Member Joined: February 29 2024 Location: Suffex Status: Offline Points: 980 |
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Offline Points: 19739 |
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Although fairly familiar of is general oeuvre, I only have heard part of his very extensive and complicated discography. While I do agree that most everyone interested in prog and JR/F should at least investigate a few of SR's albums (I think of Lanquidity as one of the first), but really think he is outside the frame or context of ProgArchives.
Drawing the PA borderlines when it comes to jazz (and folk) musics is not always easy, and we should rely on common sense. As much as I love John and Alice Coltrane (that's the "Trane" in my username) and their respective oeuvres, common sense tells us that neither (and that would include Pharoah Sanders as well) fit the scope of the site. Should our members or visitors want to check out their works, they can go to our sister site Jazz Music Archives (who is in dire need of forum activity), or discussing it in our general music discussions forum. |
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
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Moyan
Forum Senior Member Joined: February 29 2024 Location: Suffex Status: Offline Points: 980 |
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Or, for instance, Sun Ra's song "Astro Black," which showcases Sun Ra's experimental approach to music, features spacey synthesisers, repetitive motifs, free-form improvisation, and a cosmic atmosphere reminiscent of Krautrock bands like Can, Faust, or Neu!. This track blends avant-jazz and jazz-fusion sensibilities with electronic elements, creating a hypnotic and otherworldly sonic experience that mirrors the spirit of Krautrock music. |
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Lewian
Prog Reviewer Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 14229 |
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I know that these days it's very hard to get anything into Prog Related and people are reluctant to do that, but I'd say "Prog Related" is a descriptor that'd fit Sun Ra very well.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 16566 |
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Hi,
I have no idea if he should or should not be added. However, when we look at WHEN he played and what he did with his band ... I would say that it deserves to be added to a "progressive" listing ... However, with the ideas and thoughts that we have TODAY in regards to many of the groups/bands from many years ago, in some ways, we have passed them by ... it's like we really did not, or do not, wish to deal with that thought, because it will stretch things even further out and ... probably end up making the particular designation a bit on the ridiculous side ... when someone lists A, B, C and then D ... altogether and they are quite different and apart from each other. I don't know how we can give the TIME and PLACE a chance in these designations ... things are way too scattered already as it is ... by bands that probably do not deserve to be listed in that area (specially if it is only one album!!!) ... I really would not know what to say, or suggest ... with one exception ... unlike many bands already listed, Sun Ra was a real band and had quite a few albums, and that is a lot more work that many of the bands listed in the particular area folks are thinking of. Somehow, I think that bands that really did, and have the work to show for it, really deserve a better fate than ignored.
Edited by moshkito - May 16 2024 at 17:48 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Offline Points: 19739 |
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Svettie, Your arguments are duly noted and you get a half-point. That's the one thing I've appreciated from you over the years, it is your eclectic forays and suggestions (not always on-the-dot, though) But if we have to include avant-garde composers and electronic pioneers, we'd have to include Edgar Varese, Pierre Boulez, John Cage, .... and even Fela Kuti I mean, Igor Stravinsky was progressive, back in his days (a couple of steps ahead of everyone), but he's out of focus. in other words (and IMHO), it's a can of worm best not opened. .
Edited by Sean Trane - May 17 2024 at 03:15 |
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 16566 |
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Hi, I think I disagree on that thought. My take is that a lot of folks that are making these decisions, are not exactly fans of classical music in many of its interpretations and styles, and they might dislike when someone (mostly me?) makes some comparisons to classical music. The fact of the matter is, that music, like just about all arts, has been progressive for hundreds of years, thus our selective ideas are basically out of touch with the history of the music ... and easy to see when we add a band with one album and ignore Sun Ra with many albums, which is really sad ... the majority of the bands listed in many particular areas, can not even stand up to the work that Sun Ra created ... but we know it all, and we decide that Sun Ra is a freak that doesn't belong in PA or in its areas of progressive music. This would mean that a lot of the "definition" of progressive music, would have to be cleaned up, at which point it will be easier (hopefully better) to be able to find places for many bands ... although I'm still against a band that only has one album to be added ... we should look for the works that have more to their name, other than just one album. It might mean one or two things get left behind, but a small section, sort of an "almost there" section could easily be created for them. Main listing and secondary listing kind of thing. This brings up another tough issue ... an album/band "that sounds like" ... is added ... but one that has done it for many years and albums, although some of them really different and definitely experimental and progressive, gets left behind ... it's like do we really know what this whole thing is about? Unplug the darn thing and play it ... guess what ... there is nothing in it that makes it great. Reminds me of Keith and Tarkus ... take the electronics out and you got a massive piano concert ... and we really hate that thought because it isn't into the idea of "progressive, and it shouldn't! No meaningless guitar solo ... so to speak ... the kind of detail that needs to be removed from the definition since solos have been there for at least 500 years and almost all music has it! I guess we don't like listening to Mozart and his endless solos!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Offline Points: 19739 |
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AFAIK, this site is still called the encyclopedia of progressive rock, not progressive musics We've already overstepped the "boundaries" (define that ) a few times .
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
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RockHound
Forum Senior Member Joined: March 03 2013 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 613 |
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You just listed a boatload of artists I have in my massive ProgFusion playlist. I’d love to see them all here, including Sun Ra.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 16566 |
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Hi, The sad reality is that the site has a lot of folks that do "progressive music" that is not, necessarily ROCK music at all ... so we might as well glorify mr. numbers, and the token weird/different band added to the list. And, sadly, the "progressive rock" thing only means that the majority of the bands are copies of copies and almost all of them have exactly the same bits and pieces ... no talent there, compared to the "original" folks that we consider important ... It's so weird for me to see comments like this ... I don't get it! And how does it help anything? AND, Sun Ra did have guitars, bass, drims, keyboards and various solos, although designed somewhat differently than the regular format in the numbers listing. I end up wondering why the lack of appreciation and the tone of some of the parts of the conversation.
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Moyan
Forum Senior Member Joined: February 29 2024 Location: Suffex Status: Offline Points: 980 |
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It might be interesting to point out, not so much because of the eventual addition of Sun Ra to Progarchives, but in general, that Sun Ra has discussed the connection of ancient civilisations with extraterrestrial life before Erich von Däniken. Sun Ra was known for his unique musical style and equally unconventional beliefs. He claimed to have been visited by extraterrestrial beings who imparted knowledge to him. He often spoke about ancient civilisations and their potential connections to beings from other planets. Sun Ra's philosophy was deeply rooted in Afrofuturism, a cultural aesthetic that combines elements of science fiction, historical fiction, fantasy, Afrocentrism, and magic realism with non-Western cosmologies. He believed that ancient civilisations on Earth had interactions with extraterrestrial entities that influenced their development and culture. In his music and interviews, Sun Ra frequently alluded to the idea that humanity's origins and progress were intertwined with extraterrestrial intervention. His concept of "cosmic jazz" reflected his belief in a broader cosmic consciousness and interconnectedness between different worlds. While Erich von Däniken is often credited with popularising the idea of ancient astronauts and extraterrestrial influences on human history through his book "Chariots of the Gods?" published in 1968, Sun Ra's discussions predate von Däniken's work. Sun Ra's musings on these topics can be seen as a precursor to the mainstream fascination with ancient astronaut theories that gained popularity in the late 20th century. "Dance of the Cosmo-Aliens" from Sun Ra and His Myth Science Arkestra's album "Disco 3000", recorded live in Milan in 1978
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 16566 |
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Hi, I wonder if you found the real "issue" ... bands with very strong spiritual this and that, and here, many folks dislike that ... TFTO is a perfect example, but then, Roundabout has none of that stuff. Sun Ra has too much of that spiritual stuff, even if we have no idea what it is or means. But, heck, we allow MAGMA to do it ... so why not Sun Ra? But we love the 2nd rate stuff quoting of a badly translated book for many years! Just weird ... totally weird ... as to Sun Ra not being included ... though I hardly think that Mr. Sun Ra is worried about PA and their folks that make those decisions. His grave is already appreciated ... many on PA? Maybe they lack some of that spirit of greatness? I have no idea how to word the choices more often than not, but I bet that 9 out of 10 top "numbers" will all find their way to the database. 50 years later, today's audience finds Sun Ra poor ... and many folks don't like Miles improvising all over the place and having a laugh at music theory and a progressive definition!
Edited by moshkito - May 27 2024 at 15:28 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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ProgSynonym
Forum Senior Member Joined: June 07 2024 Location: Los Angeles Status: Offline Points: 128 |
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Sun Ra was out there pushing boundaries and exploring new horizons in the realm of progressive music. He was like the fusion taco of music, mixing up jazz, futurism, and rock rhythms into one groovy sonic burrito that’s out of this world, man!
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic Joined: October 05 2013 Location: SFcaUsA Status: Online Points: 14818 |
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I’m the hugest Sun Ra and love most everything he’s done He was a significant innovator and deserves credit for many musical contributions However his works are not rooted in the world of jazz The reason he’s not on this site is because his variety of fusion music isn’t rooted in rock He dabbled in many ethnic musical styles but not one album I’ve heard would qualify as the jazz rock fusion that is suitable for PA He’s on Jazz Music Archives so anyone can find him there |
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ProgSynonym
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