2000-2003 studio albums: 20 of my faves and 5 more

Hrychu wrote: I value expressing one's negative opinions with well argumented constructive criticism much more than the positive ones. Negativity has a certain aura to it that doesn't let its message through without leaving differing reactions.

My son has expressed how he values such negative commentary with constructive criticism much more than the positive ones. I wish that I always was as mature.

Hrychu wrote: I'd say that it's a perfectly natural reaction and part of human nature. We, people, as we mature, have to learn to take others' difference in opinion with a grain of salt. It's an acquired skill.

Yep, that sounds right.

Greg, you always state that you enjoy the interaction with forum members, but you enjoy it more with those that share your tastes. Fair enough. You have mentioned before that some of my posts are negative and discourteous, and you also told me in a post you no longer wanted to interact with me because my posts were bringing you mental stress. You mention being tolerant and accepting when it comes to differences of tastes, yet in the "Five best albums for someone brand new to prog" you weren't accepting of my mentions of Spock's Beard, Dream Theater, or Kansas. You simply stated you would have disliked them as a noob and still dislike them. I was trying to be helpful by choosing albums that were accessible. If you noticed I didn't mention Allan Holdsworth, because that is not for a noob. Sap, also in the same thread said he would have lost all credibility for suggesting Spock's Beard, Dream Theater, Marillion or Kansas to a noob. He further stated he didn't like any of them. Were you trying to be funny with that credibility statement? Also, Sap you mention I have been very direct in my dislike of you as a human being. I don't ever recall that. Care to tell me when that was and what I said exactly? As you requested, I will ignore your opinions, and you should give me the same courtesy.

As for being tolerant of others opinions I agree, Greg. However, when I said I didn't like "Rock Bottom" you wrote a thesis on why everyone should. You also called me out on some words I used in my review of "In A Silent Way". I don't see that as being tolerant.

Yes, we can always improve, and yes I'm grumpy at times, but I don't think I've ever been mean or cruel to any forum member. Unfortunately, I've seen that from both of you.

Anyway, I wish you both peace and the best of health.

Grumpyprogfan wrote: Greg, you always state that you enjoy the interaction with forum members, but you enjoy it more with those that share your tastes. Fair enough. You have mentioned before that some of my posts are negative and discourteous, and you also told me in a post you no longer wanted to interact with me because my posts were bringing you mental stress. You mention being tolerant and accepting when it comes to differences of tastes, yet in the "Five best albums for someone brand new to prog" you weren't accepting of my mentions of Spock's Beard, Dream Theater, or Kansas. You simply stated you would have disliked them as a noob and still dislike them. I was trying to be helpful by choosing albums that were accessible. If you noticed I didn't mention Allan Holdsworth, because that is not for a noob. Sap, also in the same thread said he would have lost all credibility for suggesting Spock's Beard, Dream Theater, Marillion or Kansas to a noob. He further stated he didn't like any of them. Were you trying to be funny with that credibility statement? Also, Sap you mention I have been very direct in my dislike of you as a human being. I don't ever recall that. Care to tell me when that was and what I said exactly? As you requested, I will ignore your opinions, and you should give me the same courtesy. As for being tolerant of others opinions I agree, Greg. However, when I said I didn't like "Rock Bottom" you wrote a thesis on why everyone should. You also called me out on some words I used in my review of "In A Silent Way". I don't see that as being tolerant. Yes, we can always improve, and yes I'm grumpy at times, but I don't think I've ever been mean or cruel to any forum member. Unfortunately, I've seen that from both of you. Anyway, I wish you both peace and the best of health.

Understandably I have tended to converse more with people who share more points of interest as I enjoy talking to others who share the same interests and also feel enthusiastic about such things. I also really enjoy talking with people who I feel are accepting of me, who I feel that I can talk to easily and feel comfortable with, and who I feel understand me and can appreciate aspects of me. I wish I was more comfortable with people generally, but I actually am quite a shy introvert (I do have social anxiety, but am good at hiding it in real life). Other than my kids, my wife is my favourite person, she is my best friend and biggest supporter, and she does not enjoy most of the music I listen to. We have both shared a love of so-called art-house film and it helps to have interests in common. But I respected her immediately because I saw that she is kind, accepting and good. That she was not into Pink Floyd or Led Zeppelin was hardly a deal-breaker.

You actually are one of the people who I have enjoyed talking to at times, which is why I might have thought this rift would have seemed easier to get over and become water under the bridge. I genuinely do not like to hold grudges. I have found quite a few of your posts to be negative and discourteous, I too have written negative and discourteous posts, we can all have bad days.

I do feel like you have made posts that have been attacking of my person (my character), and that you have assumed the worst of me. And when I have tried to explain I did not think you tried to understand. Yes, I was upset with you and I also was dealing with some nasty issues with my sibling after my mother's death. Believe me, he was far more unpleasant to my wife and I than you have ever been to me (and my wife recently loaned his daughter 15,000 dollars which we may never get back because he would not even help out his own child -- I actually was angry with my wife for not conferring with me). I said at that time when I was very upset that I did not want to communicate any more with you partially out of frustration because you did not seem to understand what I was saying and I found you continued to be unpleasant.   By the way, I have said that to my wife too at times. Sometimes we say things when we are frustrated and upset, but then we get over it.

I think that was after making a joke about preferring Parisian croissants to Topeka tarts in reference to Magma and Kansas I've never had a Topeka tart, it was a stupid stab at light-hearted humour. I wish I'd said Kobaian kroissants.   I had a wonderful time in Paris some years ago, and, maybe oddly, the buttery croissants were a highlight for me (Magma I believe was formed in Paris, and not Kobaia)

As for that topic mentioning Spock's Beard and some others, it wasn't so "simply". I was much more explanatory than that, my first post was not as detailed as I wish it had been (sometimes it's a lack of time) and did go into details and try to explain my perspective and points in depth especially later. I want people to understand what I think, and to refine my own thinking in conversation with others. That does require actively listening to each other, and it does help often to avoid making assumptions. It can be easy to jump to the wrong conclusions, but it also can be easy to sincerely and cordially talk things out and clear up misconceptions if people are willing to engage and listen while avoiding “prejudice”.

The point that I wanted to make is that there is no five bands that would appeal to everyone and it is better to take the individual tastes into account. I mentioned as examples of bands/albums that had been mentioned that had not done it for me, and I mentioned other bands I like that might not do it for others. And much like I disagree with your assertion here that every opinion is valid (and stated why), I disagreed with your assertion there that "Swans and Magma would be more disliked by a prog noob than those you dislike". It surely depends on the noob. I generally try to be careful when making claims and avoid making such absolutist statements.

"However, when I said I didn't like "Rock Bottom" you wrote a thesis on why everyone should." Are you sure that I said that everyone should? Excuse me if I don't accept your claim without proof. Link please to see specific claims and context, otherwise I will look it up, but I would hope you would have double-checked to ensure your accuracy. I find that very hard to believe and would appreciate a link to where I claimed that as I do not believe that nor can I imagine ever believing that. The burden of proof is considered to be on the one who makes claims. And I don't remember ever claiming that everyone should like it even as a joke or by mistake (sometimes we misspeak and further clarification is required). It is an album that I like and appreciate very much (and I believe that one can appreciate things without liking them) and I went into details on what I find it special and significant and why I do not think it should be dismissed easily. As for it being a "thesis", I actually put effort into trying to explain my perspective.

I'm fine with people not enjoying it, but I would hope that people would recognise the circumstances surrounding that album, the hardships that Wyatt was going through, and the love of others when it came to helping him out with the album. He had fallen out of a window and broken his back, literally hitting rock bottom.   It's like Bowie's Blackstar which also gets me in the "feels". I understand people not liking it, to each their own tastes, but I have wanted to explain why it is special to me and why I think casually dismissing it as, say, “bad” bothers me. I would consider the circumstances, but that doesn't mean that I would tell someone that they should like the album. It is obvious to me that you are not understanding me and that does make dialectic very hard, even torturous. As for my ideas on tolerance generally, I believe that tolerance should have its limits. I believe in tolerance within reason (and hopefully the reasoning is sound, and generally comes from a humane perspective).

It is clear to me that you often misunderstood my points and my jokes, I do think you miss the context, have missed out on nuance (my thinking is often not black and white), and have taken an uncharitable position when it comes to your claims of intent and actions from me. I wish I could have more pleasant conversations with you where neither of us feel attacked. I would rather have conversations with you that focus on things that we both feel positively about (music or otherwise). We have many differences but also interests in common and when you have focused on our differences I have wanted to focus on our common interests.

I have enjoyed many of our interactions and I would rather more of those. I do think you often don't read and think things through carefully enough, or perhaps I'm just really unclear. I would like to think that I'm a reasonably intelligent and articulate poster (less so as I get older, I know) and hope to communicate, but I recall an articulate poster who seemed to really hate me (I felt bullied by) who told me that he could barely understand a word I said. I suspect that it was not the words themselves so much (we all have access to online dictionaries) but rather the way I ordered the words. Weird to be attacked by someone who claims that they can't even understand you as he would. But I am prone to being too much of a literalist. Misunderstandings are common, but hopefully reasonably tolerant and intelligent people can be willing to try to talk things through in a rational and cordial manner.

Edited for a garbled sentence, that does happen to me especially when I try to be detailed. And I had my son talking to me while I was typing it out. My kids are extroverts and really big talkers.

Edited by Logan - 6 hours 10 minutes ago at 15:30

^ Pram, Boards of Canada, Air, Godspeed?

I’m posting on my crappy phone in the car while my wife and son go around the mall, I could only take so much (sensory issues). I mention because it’s hard to type and read. But then I remember text to speech.

Will, I guess this is the topic where you called Rock Bottom “pretty pretty bad” in response to Paul, where you claim that I wrote a thesis saying that everyone should like Rock Bottom. I am not seeing that and certainly do not believe that. I disagree with your claim that it is really, really bad if meant as an objective statement of quality , but also recognise that it might be bad for you. I am not claiming you or others “should” like it.

See here CLICK. Do people think I was unreasonable or rude in how I presented that?   Be interested to see if others have the same interpretation as Will. If that’s the case then I am very badly miscommunicating.

Still hard to compose on my phone. By the way I actually don’t like calling albums bad as I said before and find saying I don’t like something more polite and often sensible. Maybe you referred to it as pretty bad out of sour grapes, and that is not very nice either.

Edited by Logan - 4 hours 7 minutes ago at 17:33

Never got you into Air you say. Now that was a big failure of mine. 😉. And that is my second fave BoC studio album. Sigur Ros is likely, maybe Ulver, Rachel’s, Woven Hand? Maybe something even from the bottom five I have not got into, but also would not call bad or even pretty pretty bad. If you like those good on ya, to each their own tastes and interests as I often intone.

Oh of course Radiohead, forget you had not mentioned that — hard to post read AND think in this hot stuffy car. Did not know you liked and knew that The Necks, or maybe I did and forgot. A good reason to carefully read back over things for accuracy as it can be so easy to misremember details. Details matter, the devil is in them, but I digress back to my response to Will.

Edited by Logan - 3 hours 27 minutes ago at 18:13