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greenback
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Joined: August 14 2004
Location: Canada
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Points: 3300
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Posted: February 03 2005 at 18:53 |
to answer the question, i would say it depends....
for the drumming performance, no doubt: ATOTT and W&W are the best ones hands down!
for the poignant electric guitar solos, W&W is the best one.
for the best jazzy and best technical performance, ATOTT is the album.
for the catchiest tracks, ATOTT, ATTWT and W&W win hands down (many too many, ripples, blood on the rooftops)
on the other hand,
the best & elaborated compositions are on the albums with gabriel, especially Fxtrt and selling.
the most complex tracks are on the gabriel albums.
the most prog tracks are on the gabriel albums.
the best overall albums are some gabriel albums: fxtrt and selling.
the best keyboards parts are on fxtrt and selling.
Finally, the best vocals are ..... on the Collins albums! just listen to ripples, blood on the rooftops and ATTWT and you'll see!
Edited by greenback
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[HEADPINS - LINE OF FIRE: THE RECORD HAVING THE MOST POWERFUL GUITAR SOUND IN THE WHOLE HISTORY OF MUSIC!>
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tuxon
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 21 2004
Location: plugged-in
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Points: 5502
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Posted: February 03 2005 at 18:56 |
greenback
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I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT
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Fragile
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 27 2004
Location: Scotland
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Points: 1125
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Posted: February 03 2005 at 18:59 |
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!
Not again,Gabriel's Genesis is miles better.Collins ruined a great prog band.I despise this odious little fricking arse of a man.
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Hangedman
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 03 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 1261
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Posted: February 03 2005 at 19:44 |
I prefer Gabriels vocals, although less melodic, Gabriel is capable of more vocally. Listen to collins rendition of lamb lies down, youll understand.
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Cluster One
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 03 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 780
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Posted: February 03 2005 at 23:21 |
For the record, my favourite albums by the G-Men are the three 'big' releases: Foxtrot, SEBTP and LLDOB. However...
Genesis post-Gabriel is definitely not better, but I wouldn't go as far
as to say they are 'worse', more like just different. I liken it to a
painter who has his hand cut off. Same inspiration, same tools, but
with just a different outlet (hopefully his other hand).
A Trick of the Tail and Wind & Wuthering are
seriously quality Genesis albums. So maybe the question should be is
Genesis post-Hackett better or worse?
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Marmalade...I like marmalade.
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Rob The Plant
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 15 2004
Location: Netherlands
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Points: 819
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Posted: February 03 2005 at 23:40 |
ivan_2068 wrote:
think Phil gets an unfair rap myself. His drumming is what made the band in the first place |
Wow, this one is great, Phil Collins was only a drummer, a good one but nothing else, Peter’ Gabriel’s voice and lyrics, Steve Hackett’s unique guitar and Tony Banks compositions is what made Genesis one of the best prog bands (Sorry for Mike but IMO the bassist could have been almost any one).
Trespass IMHO is a much better album than ant post Gabriel album (Yes, for me it’s better than ATOTT, W&W and even than Selling England), and Phil Collins wasn’t there. I heard the drum parts in Trespass and must say that Genesis would not have changed very much without Collins except for his backing vocals.
Seems that someone is trying to flame or do a bit of trolling.
YOu don't wear the same clothing everyday" |
If Phil Collins compares his music with a simple set of clothes, this gives us an idea how important is the music for him, maybe as vital as a suit or a T-Shirt, whatever provides him more money.
Iván |
Yes, someone who shares my opinion! I love Trespass, and prefer it to the post Hackett. As for Phil Collins' quote- Genesis was always inovative, and changed dramatically with each record. He just changed it in the wrong way.
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Collaborators will take your soul.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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Posted: February 03 2005 at 23:52 |
Gabriel doesn't have the most gifted voice in the market, but he has something special, he transmits the message he wants, he plays with the feelings of the listener and makes you a part of the plot of the song or album.
I always give this example, but it's really clear, In The Cage is the most descriptive track I ever heard, Gabriel not only tells the story of Rael trapped in the rocks cage but he describes the feelings that pass by Rael's mind, his physical symptoms, his anger and pain plus the solitude and disappointment when abandoned by his brother John.
I always feel the pain and claustrophobia made more evident with his famous semi yodeling almost as a desperate cry for help:
Stalactites, stalagmites Shut me in, lock me tight. Lips are dry, throat is dry. Feel like burning, stomach churning, I'm dressed up in a white costume Padding out leftover room. Body stretching, feel the wretching In the cage Get me out of this cage!
Of course the lyrics and the dramatic lyrics (By Gabriel) help a lot, because nobody can be emotional with Misunderstanding, but Phil is unemotional.
Phil's voice is nice for the soft stuff, but he sings in only one tone and he's incapable of transmitting emotions, when he tries to be dramatic he only shouts, for example listen the touch me, touch me part of The Musical Box by the two vocalists and the difference is very clear in favor of Peter.
Iván
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Rob The Good
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Joined: December 17 2004
Location: New Zealand
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Points: 476
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Posted: February 04 2005 at 01:32 |
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And Jesus said unto John, "come forth and receive eternal life..."
Unfortunately, John came fifth and was stuck with a toaster.
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Guests
Forum Guest Group
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Posted: February 04 2005 at 01:39 |
Better withOUT Gabriel?! Are you sure you didn't type that wrong?
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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Posted: February 04 2005 at 02:55 |
I agree with ivan too..
Thats a good appraisal of both singers. Gabriels voice basically had more character and was more expressive. Phil Collins was technically a better singer, but was really a just a more polished version, especially on TOTT and WAW. Its funny that when their manager first heard Phil singing lead vocals in the rehearsals for TOTT he said 'Phil sounds more like Peter Gabriel than Peter Gabriel!'
And of course at the reunion concert at Milton Keynes in 1882 (?) PG was reported to have said to PC 'You sing the old songs better than I do, but you'll never sing them like I do'
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Jim Garten
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Retired Admin & Razor Guru
Joined: February 02 2004
Location: South England
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Points: 14693
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Posted: February 04 2005 at 03:30 |
Syzygy wrote:
Post Hackett Genesis was |
Good point, well made - The usual debate divides Genesis into Gabriel/Collins eras; what few people highlight is the fact that Genesis remained a high profile progressive rock band, with a consistently high quality output not until Gabriel left, but until Hackett left.
Afterward, there was a very patchy album in "and then there were three", followed by "duke", "abacab" etc etc....
Methinks we usually put the dividing line about 4 years too early - discuss...
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Jon Lord 1941 - 2012
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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Posted: February 04 2005 at 03:45 |
When Hackett left it did mark the end of an era, thats for sure. Hackett thought the band were moving onto very safe and unadventurous ground, and was sick of having his songs rejected by the band.
For me 'And then there were three' and 'Duke' were both very good albums, though. It was after Duke they turned sh!t over night. Abacab was drivel IMO. Sounded like they had knocked it up in a day Everything they done subsequesntly barely warrents comment.
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Velvetclown
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 13 2004
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Points: 8548
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Posted: February 04 2005 at 04:56 |
Genesis was better without Steve Howe !!!!!!!!!
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Certif1ed
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Posted: February 04 2005 at 05:05 |
"Better" - in what way?
If you prefer the music after Gabriel left, then to you, yes, they were better.
From a technical musical perspective, Syzygy is right on the money - the quality of the musc changed dramatically after Steve Hackett left - necessarily.
However, Banks has always been a bit of an understated powerhouse of great musical ideas, and to me at least, Duke is the last of the truly progressive albums, each of which have qualities that appeal in very different ways; highlighting Genesis' versatility as a band.
That said, "A Trick of The Tail" is where the musical ideas become noticeably less experimental and more "safe". Ironically, this is summed up in the lyrics to "Duchess" on "Duke".
What's better is up to you - but I prefer music to be more experimental and less "safe".
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Velvetclown
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 13 2004
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Points: 8548
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Posted: February 04 2005 at 05:08 |
Edited by Velvetclown
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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Posted: February 04 2005 at 05:26 |
Velvetclown wrote:
Genesis was better without Steve Howe !!!!!!!!! |
Steve HOWE?? Perhaps if Howe had replaced Hackett they would have still produced something worth listening to after 1980!!
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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chorus of one
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 27 2004
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 299
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Posted: February 04 2005 at 05:29 |
Velvetclown wrote:
Genesis was better without Steve Howe !!!!!!!!! | That's completely untrue. Steve Howe made Genesis what they were.
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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Posted: February 04 2005 at 05:35 |
Did nothing for Yes though.
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Trotsky
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Joined: October 25 2004
Location: Malaysia
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Posted: February 04 2005 at 05:35 |
I'm presuming I'm the only person here who's been scolded by Phil Collins ... and that for asking him a question which wasn't subtle enough to hide the fact that I much prefer Gabriel-era Genesis ...
It happened during a video conference interview in 1996. Twas my first year as a journalist for Malaysia's The Star newspaper, and Phil was promoting the Dance in the Light album ...
Phil's two notable quotes ... "Do you want Steve Hackett's phone number? Actually Steve is one of those people I found where all we had in common was the music, and when we stopped playing together, we had nothing to say to each other. I've seen him once or twice at Michael Rutherford's parties, I think" and equally tellingly ... "I don't think I'm doing the same old sh*t all the time" ...
Sigh ... it's tough as a journalist not to go fawning over your heroes ... ( I think Phil's drumming was particularly outstanding on Nursery Cryme, Foxtrot and Selling England by the Pound ... plus I really love the haunting song In The Air Tonight) ... but I obviously went too far in the other direction on that occasion...
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chorus of one
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 27 2004
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 299
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Posted: February 04 2005 at 05:38 |
Blacksword wrote:
Did nothing for Yes though.
| Yes went downhill after Keith Emerson left anyway.
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