Forum Home Forum Home > Other music related lounges > Proto-Prog and Prog-Related Lounge
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - The Beatles, superficial or fantastic ?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedThe Beatles, superficial or fantastic ?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>
Author
Message
Jaap View Drop Down
Forum Newbie
Forum Newbie


Joined: February 09 2005
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 16
Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Beatles, superficial or fantastic ?
    Posted: February 24 2005 at 18:52

Opinions about the Beatles by music critics are very devided, they were blamed of being too commercial and simple as much as they are praised for their influence on pop-music, creativity and timeless music.

I can't deny they were commercial, especially in their earlier years and had made some easy-listening tunes, but in spite of that I don't think they were superficial, in my opinion they were very creative in their accessibility. Their music was very diverse and during their existence they developed a lot. I'd like to know your opinion!

Back to Top
Raymon7174 View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie
Avatar

Joined: December 16 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 94
Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2005 at 18:58

I'm not a huge fan of the early stuff. As for timeless - Abbey Road. Particularly the second side of the LP.

I'm sure many fans consider a lot more of their stuff timeless, but from beginning to end I think Abbey Road is their best work.

Raymon
Back to Top
The-Bullet View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 23 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 401
Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2005 at 19:11
If it wasn't for their commercial beginnings they probably wouldn't have had the freedom to do albums like Revolver and Sgt Peppers. Their music evolved thru' the sixties... and certainly affected and influenced many following musicians in a big way.

"Why say it cannot be done.....they'd be better doing pop songs?"
Back to Top
Cluster One View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: February 03 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 780
Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2005 at 19:18
Ah yes, the inevitable 'Beatles Thread'...

In a nutshell, there are two categories of music: 'The Beatles' and then 'Everyone who came after'.

Rather than post my comments on them (after all who really gives a flying f*$@ what I think) it's always best to look at what influence they had on their peers and also what those peers think of them.

FLOYD for one, were always in awe of them. That should say something...

Also, a slightly depressing thought for those of you aged 30 years and older. The Beatles created all their music BEFORE the age of 30. What have you accomplished in the equivalent time?


Marmalade...I like marmalade.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Forum Guest Group
Forum Guest Group
Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2005 at 19:48

Wondered how long it would be before the Beatles came in...

Hit list:

'Yellow submarine' (Check out ''Northern Song''!

Sgt peppers lonley hearts club band'

'Magical mystery tour'

'white album' (My fav)

'Abbey road'

 

Never cared for 'Let it be' album much

If you have a top play back system you'll appreciate EMI recordings they the best, it shines me old diamonds, with early Floyd recodings for example

 

 

 

 



Edited by Karnevil9
Back to Top
Vegetableman View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: August 27 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 242
Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2005 at 19:57

I can say I love everything from Rubber Soul to the end.

The Beatles and Pink Floyd are the two bands I've listened to my entire life.

"Mister Fripp, your music is quite different than everything else out there. In one word, how would you describe it?"

"Progressive.... yeah, that's it..."
Back to Top
Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2005 at 20:30
Quote I'm not a huge fan of the early stuff. As for timeless - Abbey Road. Particularly the second side of the LP.

I'm sure many fans consider a lot more of their stuff timeless, but from beginning to end I think Abbey Road is their best work.

Absolutely agree with you Raymon , that's exactly how I feel Abbey Road side B is a masterpiece, even when I like Sgt Peppers I don't see it as the great masterpiece, and absolutely don't care for early stuff.

Iván

            
Back to Top
billyshears'67 View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: November 26 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 161
Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2005 at 20:30
The Beatles are my favorite group of all time (as of Feb. 2005).

Their music is much more intricate than others may think.

George Martin & the Beatles  really did some very intersting things that no one had done before at the time.

Peace & take care


Edited by billyshears'67
Back to Top
maani View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Founding Moderator

Joined: January 30 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2632
Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2005 at 21:33

Jaap:

Well, as usual one has to look at this from two sides.  First, there is The Beatles' music.  Second, there is The Beatles' influence.

Re music, I happen to love all of it: from Love Me Do to Her Majesty.  Sure, the later stuff was more "mature," and thus more "acceptable" to snooty progheads like us...  However, even She Loves You was way ahead of its time compositionally, and especially harmonically.

Re influence, there is simply no argument.  If we assume that among the earliest prog albums were PF's Piper, The Moody's Future Passed, and KC's In the Court, one need only keep in mind that all three were influenced by Sgt. Pepper: the Moody's stated as much, as did Fripp (in an obvious moment of graciousness...).  Even PF reluctantly, begrudgingly admitted that Pepper influenced Piper (a nice alliteration, no?).

Personally, I believe that The Beatles were already "proto-prog" by Revolver (particularly Love To You, She Said She Said and especially Tomorrow Never Knows).  Pepper cemented that, and then "Strawberry Fields" and "I Am the Walrus" (and, as KE9 notes, a couple of tracks on Yellow Submarine, including Only a Northern Song and It's All Too Much) made it as clear as day.

It is also important to keep in mind, as Billy Shears notes, that The Beatles and George Martin were doing things production-wise that were so far ahead of their time as to be almost frightening - with very little equipment.  Consider that Sgt. Pepper was created on two four-track machines, which Martin "split" to create what amounted to the first 16-track album.  Add to this the effects they were using (e.g., audience sounds) and new, if not unique, studio tricks (e.g., tape loops, backward solos, etc.), and one can readily understand why Pepper holds such a unique, critical and historic place in rock, and in its influence on prog.

Peace.

Back to Top
Cygnus X-2 View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: December 24 2004
Location: Bucketheadland
Status: Offline
Points: 21342
Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2005 at 21:46

The Beatles have always been (and always will be) my favorite group. I grew up on them. I spent many nights as a young-in watching Help!, Magical Mystery Tour, and Yellow Submarine (I still own all the original copies) and listened all their records. They will always have a place in my heart.

Back to Top
Jaja Brasil View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie


Joined: February 22 2005
Location: Brazil
Status: Offline
Points: 88
Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2005 at 22:18

Hi Everybody.

Beatles are my number one group. Both, the "Early Beatles" and the "Studio Years Beatles" I love too much !!!

I think that if they not existed, the progressive music will not existed too, or it will be very different.

They made the perfection in 3 minutes songs. It's amazing! Think about it...

Best Greetings...

Back to Top
aqualung28 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 03 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 916
Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2005 at 22:24

The Beatles are excellent.  Without them we wouldn't have anything, even Metal (Helter Skelter, before someone says otherwise)

"O' lady look up in time o' lady look out of love
'n you should have us all
O' you should have us fall"
"Bill's Corpse" By Captain Beefheart
Back to Top
Hangedman View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: November 03 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 1261
Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2005 at 23:32
Theyre good, great even in an evolution/history of music type of way. Get Revolver or magical mystery tour, or if your into the sixties psychadelia stuff (syd barret fans) get sgt.peppers. otherwise i find them mediocre at best (yes even the white album, it has some really good tunes but as an album it doesnt flow at all, its almost like george/paul/john were in a competition on it) and abbey road is great, just not my cup of tea.
Back to Top
FloydWright View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer


Joined: January 20 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 369
Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2005 at 00:57
I'm afraid I don't like the Beatles very much...well, I like some of Paul McCartney and George Harrison's stuff, but that's about it. I don't like John Lennon's voice, and I really do think some of the music sounds infantile. Not all of it...but some definitely does.
Back to Top
Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2005 at 01:17

Aqualung28 wrote:

Quote The Beatles are excellent.  Without them we wouldn't have anything, even Metal (Helter Skelter, before someone says otherwise)

I always heard this and I can't deny they were influencial, but I believe this is not necesarilly true.

If The Beatles never would have existed, somebody else would have taken their place, another band would have influenced the rest or maybe many bands would have replaced that influence, but music had to evolve and Rock was the most explosive force of music even before them.

Maybe the evolution would have been different, faster or slower, but rock had to change and grow with or without The Beatles, nobody could stop it.

Iván

            
Back to Top
Jaap View Drop Down
Forum Newbie
Forum Newbie


Joined: February 09 2005
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 16
Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2005 at 04:52

Originally posted by maani maani wrote:

Re influence, there is simply no argument.  If we assume that among the earliest prog albums were PF's Piper, The Moody's Future Passed, and KC's In the Court, one need only keep in mind that all three were influenced by Sgt. Pepper: the Moody's stated as much, as did Fripp (in an obvious moment of graciousness...).  Even PF reluctantly, begrudgingly admitted that Pepper influenced Piper (a nice alliteration, no?).

That's interesting to think about, I agree that Sgt.Pepper was a very influential album, but before it was released, Pink Floyd and Frank Zappa already did some very experimental things. I think the progression they made in the earlier years was more influential on progressive rock then Sgt Peppers. Sgt.Peppers was the figurehead of a creative revolution in pop-music. 

Back to Top
Certif1ed View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559
Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2005 at 06:38
Originally posted by ivan_2068 ivan_2068 wrote:

Aqualung28 wrote:

Quote The Beatles are excellent.  Without them we wouldn't have anything, even Metal (Helter Skelter, before someone says otherwise)

I always heard this and I can't deny they were influencial, but I believe this is not necesarilly true.

If The Beatles never would have existed, somebody else would have taken their place, another band would have influenced the rest or maybe many bands would have replaced that influence, but music had to evolve and Rock was the most explosive force of music even before them.

Maybe the evolution would have been different, faster or slower, but rock had to change and grow with or without The Beatles, nobody could stop it.

Iván

The easy answer to that is, Ivan, that the Beatles DID.

Your argument is like saying that if Mozart or Beethoven hadn't existed, then somebody else would have taken their place - or that if you didn't exist then somebody else would take your place.

I for one am not sure how much truth there is in that, but I'm as certain as I can be of the truth of the easy answer!

Rock'n'Roll was an explosive force in music - but so was Beethoven. People couldn't believe the monstrous cacophony his music produced - some actually complained! Beethoven's evolution of music from Classical to Romantic remained a titanic shadow over composers right up until the 20th Century, when the 1st World War seemed to stimulate a complete breakdown of old forms.

Other styles of popular music took the world by storm too - the Charleston in the "Roaring twenties", the Big Bands during the 2nd World War, Jazz...

But "Beatlemania" was an insanity - I'm sure everyone is familiar with stories of the band being unable to hear what they were playing at gigs because of the fans screaming. John Lennon was absolutely correct with his outrageously controversial statement about being bigger than Jesus at the time - in the context that the Beatles albums sold more units than the Bible.

The Beatles' music itself remains a benchmark - and the albums released over such a short period of time reveal a level of consistent improvement in quality of songwriting, arrangement,  production and influence that has never been matched by any band. In history, I would suggest that only Mozart's output is more staggering in terms of quantity, quality and influence over a given timeframe.

So the short answer to the original question is that they were and still are fantastic.

As far as superficiality is concerned, it must be remembered that the Beatles were not just great songwriters, they really worked on their public image too, with a flawless marketing strategy and brand awareness (if you'll excuse the "Business-ese"). So yes, they had a deliberate and crafted level of superficiality too, in order to maintain and grow their mass appeal.

Most bands today seem to concentrate more on the latter than the former, sadly

That's why I listen to prog rock - where the music matters most

 

Back to Top
mirco View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2005
Location: Venezuela
Status: Offline
Points: 819
Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2005 at 07:22
Originally posted by ivan_2068 ivan_2068 wrote:

 

If The Beatles never would have existed, somebody else would have taken their place, another band would have influenced the rest or maybe many bands would have replaced that influence, but music had to evolve and Rock was the most explosive force of music even before them.

Maybe the evolution would have been different, faster or slower, but rock had to change and grow with or without The Beatles, nobody could stop it.

Iván

How do you lawyers says? That's speculative?

I never care too much for The Beatles, until one o two years ago. I decide to increase my musical spectrum and begin to find bands that I alllways discarded in the past. And learn to appretiate The Beatles beyond  the usual classics. There are true gems, it's a matter to find them.

Please forgive me for my crappy english!
Back to Top
Rob The Plant View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: December 15 2004
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 819
Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2005 at 09:46
Their early stuff is freakin aweful, but they developed into a great band, especially once they met Bob Dylan. Probably because Bob Dylan is so much better than them.
Collaborators will take your soul.
Back to Top
Rob The Plant View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: December 15 2004
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 819
Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2005 at 09:53
Production wise the Beatles may have done some great stuff, but can it compare to Lee Perry's work, which was probably done earlier, I don't know for sure, but if it was, then the Beatles pale in comparison.
Collaborators will take your soul.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.172 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.