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The Song that Announced the Birth of Math Rock
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BrufordFreak View Drop Down
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    Posted: July 12 2023 at 05:39
We all know that Math Rock came out of the minimalist movement among classical musicians--artists like John Cage, Terry Riley, Steve Reich, and Phillip Glass--but can you cite the first rock song that you know of to express those quick-changing minimalistic polyrhythms? 

As I first was becoming aware of the minimalist movement King Crimson's album Discipline was just being released. (September 22 of 1981.) I've always felt that the quartet's song "Discipline" was the first (and, perhaps, most influential) rock expression of what had been going on in the African, Gamelan, and, more recently, Minimalist music scenes. Do you know of another song from the rock world that predates KC's master class? I'm ready to be educated, thank you very much.
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"Fracture" - King Crimson
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Maybe not the birth, but the Talking Heads had a huge influence on Belew and Fripp before Discipline came out. Fripp guests on this tune.
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You'd think Zappa would have written a math rock song along the way.  
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Hmmm, that requires a lot of thought and auditing.   Discipline is a good proto-projection, but only sounds a little bit like Mathrock.   

'Mathrock' is as much a sound as it is an approach ~ Breadwinner, Sleeping People, Oxes, Muddy World, etc.   Some people think Battles is Mathrock.  They're not.  Some people think Tortoise is Mathrock.  They're not.   

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Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Hmmm, that requires a lot of thought and auditing.   Discipline is a good proto-projection, but only sounds a little bit like Mathrock.   

'Mathrock' is as much a sound as it is an approach ~ Breadwinner, Sleeping People, Oxes, Muddy World, etc.   Some people think Battles is Mathrock.  They're not.  Some people think Tortoise is Mathrock.  They're not.   

Cheers!



More bands to check out! Cool!
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I don't know much about the math rock genre, but wonder if Henry Cow's Ruins was an influence considering it was based on Fibonacci numbers. 

Having said that, I am aware that math rock isn't necessarily "mathematical."
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Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:

I don't know much about the math rock genre, but wonder if Henry Cow's Ruins was an influence considering it was based on Fibonacci numbers. 

Having said that, I am aware that math rock isn't necessarily "mathematical."

I'm sure it must've been on a creative level.  

And as far as I'm concerned, Mathrock is necessarily mathematical.
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Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Hmmm, that requires a lot of thought and auditing.   Discipline is a good proto-projection, but only sounds a little bit like Mathrock.   

'Mathrock' is as much a sound as it is an approach ~ Breadwinner, Sleeping People, Oxes, Muddy World, etc.   Some people think Battles is Mathrock.  They're not.  Some people think Tortoise is Mathrock.  They're not.   
Cheers!
More bands to check out! Cool!
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From Wikipedia. This seems right as far as i know.

The first totally math rock album probably belongs to Victims Family's debut "Voltage & Violets."

The albums Red and Discipline by King Crimson,[10][11] Spiderland by Slint[12] are generally considered seminal influences on the development of math rock. The Canadian punk rock group Nomeansno (founded in 1979 and inactive as of 2016) have been cited by music critics as a "secret influence" on math rock,[13] predating much of the genre's development by more than a decade. An even more avant-garde group of the same era, Massacre, featured the guitarist Fred Frith and the bassist Bill Laswell. With some influence from the rapid-fire energy of punk, Massacre's influential music used complex rhythmic characteristics. Black Flag's 1984 album, My War, also included unusual polyrhythms.[

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^ Yeah punk had a big influence, so did Frith & Fripp.  That's one reason it's such a fascinating form.
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Spiderland by Slint[12] 

What?? Post for sure, but Math?
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^ i think Slint is way overrated and given more credit than it actually deserves. I don't even like Spiderland that much. I think the debut Tweez is much more interesting and has more math rock ideas. So yeah i'd say that part of the Wikipedia article may be pandering to those who worship Spiderland but the rest of what's mentioned seems good. Ironically i just listened to KC's "REd" today for the first time in a long time and it does really seem like the launching ground for many brilliant ideas including math rock.

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Spiderland was inexplicably deemed 'mathrock' years ago. 

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^ sure but so many other albums came before. In the 80s Victims Family, Bitch Magnet, Blind Idiot God, Forever Einstein, Sabot and even Slint's "Tweez" are now considered math rock.

In the 90s before "Spiderland" we can mention Bitch Magnet, Vexed, Eskimo, Breadwinner and Ruins debut (mix of zeuhl, math rock, avant, metal, noise) before "Spiderland." I'm just saying that it gets too much credit as some kind of innovative force.

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Jesus, now I have to check out all those!
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Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:

I don't know much about the math rock genre, but wonder if Henry Cow's Ruins was an influence considering it was based on Fibonacci numbers. 

Having said that, I am aware that math rock isn't necessarily "mathematical."

Thanks, Ken! I've heard this album (and certainly Henry Cow) mentioned before in association with being seminal to the birth of Math Rock. I don't know the album so will look forward to checking it out.
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Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

^ i think Slint is way overrated and given more credit than it actually deserves. I don't even like Spiderland that much. I think the debut Tweez is much more interesting and has more math rock ideas. So yeah i'd say that part of the Wikipedia article may be pandering to those who worship Spiderland but the rest of what's mentioned seems good. Ironically i just listened to KC's "REd" today for the first time in a long time and it does really seem like the launching ground for many brilliant ideas including math rock.

Agreed! I've never once listened to Spiderland and thought of it as Math Rock. 

I'll have to go back to Red to confirm your references. It wouldn't surprise me that the ideas that were so perfectly displayed in the five minutes of "Discipline" would be present, even in their infancy, in some of the music on Red.
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Points: 8628 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrufordFreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2023 at 22:49
Some of Eno's early solo albums have some elements--like Another Green World.
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Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:

I don't know much about the math rock genre, but wonder if Henry Cow's Ruins was an influence considering it was based on Fibonacci numbers. 

Having said that, I am aware that math rock isn't necessarily "mathematical."

I'm sure it must've been on a creative level.  

And as far as I'm concerned, Mathrock is necessarily mathematical.



What I meant by that is that the composers don't necessarily use mathematical formulae to make their music by (surely some do). The complexity of the music does sound mathematical to the ears of listeners, thus the genre name was coined based on that. But all music is mathematical, as is the universe.
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