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Snow Dog 
Special Collaborator
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Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
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Points: 32995
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 Posted: July 12 2010 at 16:43 |
 harmonium.ro wrote:
Snow Dog wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
Even worse than "where are my car keys?": "where's my car?"
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Seriously? This happened to you? |
Exactly one week ago. The problem was that I remembered perfectly where the car was parked...
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I feel for you. I've had several cars stolen. One burned too.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: July 12 2010 at 16:44 |
Alitare wrote:
kenethlevine wrote:
virtually every "serious" artist active in the 70s incorporated some of the prog of the time into their sound. This is logical since prog was big, even cool for large stretches of that decade, and even when it wasn't big or cool, people would borrow from it because it was one of the major forces of its day. We have had this discussion about MANY artists, including probably my favourite pop group, ABBA, because they have a handful of somewhat progressive songs and were clearly influenced by the symphonic aspects. But in the end, Abba was predominantly a pop group, and Stevie Wonder predominantly an R&B artist. In both cases decidedly so. |
If you look at The Alan Parsons Project, they were predominately pop, even if Tales is a fully crossover prog album. Supertramp were almost identical in the pop aspect of their music, and the same goes for radiohead and their alternative rock background. NIN had a predominately industrial setup, and a lot of folks think Coheed is just a big ol' slab of alternative hard rock. Now, I'm sure these folks are here because they took their roots and expanded on them, progressively, and I happen to feel that this is what Stevie Wonder did in the early 70's with his roots. Maybe he's not prog rock, but he's not any less prog rock than NIN, Coheed, Supertramp, APP, or Radiohead. (Oldfield's got him beat, but hell....)
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Not wanting to get too picky, but Supertramp were a Progressive Rock band before Crime Of The Century and a Pop band after.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: July 12 2010 at 16:46 |
Catcher10 wrote:
Alitare wrote:
If you look at The Alan Parsons Project, they were predominately pop, even if Tales is a fully crossover prog album. Supertramp were almost identical in the pop aspect of their music, and the same goes for radiohead and their alternative rock background. NIN had a predominately industrial setup, and a lot of folks think Coheed is just a big ol' slab of alternative hard rock. Now, I'm sure these folks are here because they took their roots and expanded on them, progressively, and I happen to feel that this is what Stevie Wonder did in the early 70's with his roots. Maybe he's not prog rock, but he's not any less prog rock than NIN, Coheed, Supertramp, APP, or Radiohead. (Oldfield's got him beat, but hell....)
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I think this is the jist of this post now......its not that Stevie Wonder will be added to PA (it will never happen...what a shame) but the fact remains that Stevie Wonder's music is progressive, classical, jazzy, fusiony and yes ROCK. And as you state same vein as Alan Parsons and the only album that most on this site quote or listen to by Supertramp is Crime of the Century, which I am sorry to break it to you is a POP ROCK album. Coheed is progressive rock.....first 4 albums are all concept, linked to each other...regardless.
I think if Stevie Wonder did not have the R&B tag on him, this might be a different scenario/outcome. R&B = Rhythmn & Blues....why is that not progressive enough to be added here? The main driver to the negativism is he is pop recording.....A huge portion of artists on this site have some kind of "pop" recording in their catalog.....So please drop that excuse and give us another valid reason why Stevie Wonder should not be included in the PA?
Prog Archives.com.......I can live with that easily. Drop the tag line of "Your Ultimate Prog Rock Resource" ....Because not everything here is ROCK, especially if you all do not think Stevie Wonder is ROCK.
Cheers everyone!!
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I've never used the "Pop" tag as an excuse to not to add a band into Crossover - that's kind of the whole point of Crossover. 
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995
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Posted: July 12 2010 at 16:47 |
Textbook wrote:
A band I'd really like to see here but probably never will is Magazine. Real Life is an essential album, very influential on a lot of the alternative/experimental/proggy rock bands of the 90s. Yes I know it came out in the 70s, but it doesn't seem to have made its impact till the 90s. |
I believe that I have suggested Magazine in the past. I don't understand your 90s comment though.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: July 12 2010 at 16:56 |
Snow Dog wrote:
Textbook wrote:
A band I'd really like to see here but probably never will is Magazine. Real Life is an essential album, very influential on a lot of the alternative/experimental/proggy rock bands of the 90s. Yes I know it came out in the 70s, but it doesn't seem to have made its impact till the 90s. |
I believe that I have suggested Magazine in the past. I don't understand your 90s comment though. |
As Ian knows, I am also a huge fan of Magazine and honestly believe John McGeogh to be one of the greatest guitarist of his generation.
One of the bands in Crossover was so influenced by them they recorded a couple of tracks with Devoto in the 90s.
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Alitare
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 08 2008
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 3595
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Posted: July 12 2010 at 17:03 |
Dean wrote:
Catcher10 wrote:
Alitare wrote:
If you look at The Alan Parsons Project, they were predominately pop, even if Tales is a fully crossover prog album. Supertramp were almost identical in the pop aspect of their music, and the same goes for radiohead and their alternative rock background. NIN had a predominately industrial setup, and a lot of folks think Coheed is just a big ol' slab of alternative hard rock. Now, I'm sure these folks are here because they took their roots and expanded on them, progressively, and I happen to feel that this is what Stevie Wonder did in the early 70's with his roots. Maybe he's not prog rock, but he's not any less prog rock than NIN, Coheed, Supertramp, APP, or Radiohead. (Oldfield's got him beat, but hell....)
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I think this is the jist of this post now......its not that Stevie Wonder will be added to PA (it will never happen...what a shame) but the fact remains that Stevie Wonder's music is progressive, classical, jazzy, fusiony and yes ROCK. And as you state same vein as Alan Parsons and the only album that most on this site quote or listen to by Supertramp is Crime of the Century, which I am sorry to break it to you is a POP ROCK album. Coheed is progressive rock.....first 4 albums are all concept, linked to each other...regardless.
I think if Stevie Wonder did not have the R&B tag on him, this might be a different scenario/outcome. R&B = Rhythmn & Blues....why is that not progressive enough to be added here? The main driver to the negativism is he is pop recording.....A huge portion of artists on this site have some kind of "pop" recording in their catalog.....So please drop that excuse and give us another valid reason why Stevie Wonder should not be included in the PA?
Prog Archives.com.......I can live with that easily. Drop the tag line of "Your Ultimate Prog Rock Resource" ....Because not everything here is ROCK, especially if you all do not think Stevie Wonder is ROCK.
Cheers everyone!!
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I've never used the "Pop" tag as an excuse to not to add a band into Crossover - that's kind of the whole point of Crossover.
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Well, regardless, Supertramp sucks. =) But I egress... And now I'm back. What was that, wordplay, you say? You say it was "digress"? Well, you can suck a big, hairy... Well, Stevie Vai may have been predominately death-jazz, but I think he fits snugly in the confines of "art rock", albeit with a vastly open-ended vision of what "art rock" entails, especially if you look at the grandiosity of Songs in the Key of Life.
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member
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Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
Status: Offline
Points: 17553
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Posted: July 12 2010 at 17:03 |
Dean wrote:
Catcher10 wrote:
I think this is the jist of this post now......its not that Stevie Wonder will be added to PA (it will never happen...what a shame) but the fact remains that Stevie Wonder's music is progressive, classical, jazzy, fusiony and yes ROCK. And as you state same vein as Alan Parsons and the only album that most on this site quote or listen to by Supertramp is Crime of the Century, which I am sorry to break it to you is a POP ROCK album. Coheed is progressive rock.....first 4 albums are all concept, linked to each other...regardless.
I think if Stevie Wonder did not have the R&B tag on him, this might be a different scenario/outcome. R&B = Rhythmn & Blues....why is that not progressive enough to be added here? The main driver to the negativism is he is pop recording.....A huge portion of artists on this site have some kind of "pop" recording in their catalog.....So please drop that excuse and give us another valid reason why Stevie Wonder should not be included in the PA?
Prog Archives.com.......I can live with that easily. Drop the tag line of "Your Ultimate Prog Rock Resource" ....Because not everything here is ROCK, especially if you all do not think Stevie Wonder is ROCK.
Cheers everyone!!
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I've never used the "Pop" tag as an excuse to not to add a band into Crossover - that's kind of the whole point of Crossover.
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BINGO!!!!!!!!! Then add Stevie Wonder and Alitare and I will stop 
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Catcher10
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Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
Status: Offline
Points: 17553
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Posted: July 12 2010 at 17:09 |
Alitare wrote:
Well, Stevie Vai may have been predominately death-jazz, but I think he fits snugly in the confines of "art rock", albeit with a vastly open-ended vision of what "art rock" entails, especially if you look at the grandiosity of Songs in the Key of Life.
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"Holy musical categories Batman......" What's that??
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Alitare
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 08 2008
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 3595
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Posted: July 12 2010 at 17:17 |
Catcher10 wrote:
Alitare wrote:
Well, Stevie Vai may have been predominately death-jazz, but I think he fits snugly in the confines of "art rock", albeit with a vastly open-ended vision of what "art rock" entails, especially if you look at the grandiosity of Songs in the Key of Life.
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"Holy musical categories Batman......" What's that?? |
A...a....joke, Roy, it's...it's a joke. You know, like "What do you call a baby in a microwave?......lunch!" Like MTV, Bell bottom jeans, or Rush's music career.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: July 12 2010 at 17:18 |
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And with that any attempt at serious discussion is closed. Thanks for your time guys. I'm out.
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What?
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Catcher10
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Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
Status: Offline
Points: 17553
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Posted: July 12 2010 at 17:34 |
Alitare wrote:
A...a....joke, Roy, it's...it's a joke.
You know, like "What do you call a baby in a microwave?......lunch!"
Like MTV, Bell bottom jeans, or Rush's music career.
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It is sad that when you are the best at what you do.....there is always a bulls-eye on your back. You must be a voting member of the Rock n Roll Hall of Fame...and subscribe to Rolling Stone Magazine.
Peace out everyone.....
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: July 12 2010 at 19:57 |
Catcher10 wrote:
Alitare wrote:
If you look at The Alan Parsons Project, they were predominately pop, even if Tales is a fully crossover prog album. Supertramp were almost identical in the pop aspect of their music, and the same goes for radiohead and their alternative rock background. NIN had a predominately industrial setup, and a lot of folks think Coheed is just a big ol' slab of alternative hard rock. Now, I'm sure these folks are here because they took their roots and expanded on them, progressively, and I happen to feel that this is what Stevie Wonder did in the early 70's with his roots. Maybe he's not prog rock, but he's not any less prog rock than NIN, Coheed, Supertramp, APP, or Radiohead. (Oldfield's got him beat, but hell....)
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I think this is the jist of this post now......its not that Stevie Wonder will be added to PA (it will never happen...what a shame) but the fact remains that Stevie Wonder's music is progressive, classical, jazzy, fusiony and yes ROCK. And as you state same vein as Alan Parsons and the only album that most on this site quote or listen to by Supertramp is Crime of the Century, which I am sorry to break it to you is a POP ROCK album. Coheed is progressive rock.....first 4 albums are all concept, linked to each other...regardless.
I think if Stevie Wonder did not have the R&B tag on him, this might be a different scenario/outcome. R&B = Rhythmn & Blues....why is that not progressive enough to be added here? The main driver to the negativism is he is pop recording.....A huge portion of artists on this site have some kind of "pop" recording in their catalog.....So please drop that excuse and give us another valid reason why Stevie Wonder should not be included in the PA?
Prog Archives.com.......I can live with that easily. Drop the tag line of "Your Ultimate Prog Rock Resource" ....Because not everything here is ROCK, especially if you all do not think Stevie Wonder is ROCK.
Cheers everyone!!
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I don't think, as Dean explained, it would affect evaluation much either way because the main consideration is consistency with other artists in that sub genre. But it definitely affects the way the prog crowd in general perceives the issue and nothing can be done about it because people are too hung up on tags and labels.
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AtomicCrimsonRush
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Joined: July 02 2008
Location: Australia
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Points: 14256
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Posted: July 13 2010 at 03:55 |
10 pages of discussion? This should have ended with the first page with a post saying...
STEVIE W FOR PROG?.... keep dreaming.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
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Posted: July 13 2010 at 04:30 |
Well, it wasn't 10 pages of discussion about Stevie Wonder, there was a lot of tangential discussion and a fair amount of OT silliness. Somewhere in all that was some serious discussion, some good and valid arguments for and against and some fair assessments of the value of the suggestion.
I believe it was a unsuitable suggestion for Crossover Prog, perhaps JazzRock Fusion would have been an easier ask, I'm not an expert in JR/F but not all Jazz Rock is Prog so not all Jazz Rock artists get added here. This also is true of Crossover Prog, Avant-Prog and Psyche-Prog (and Art Rock) ... not all Crossover/Art Rock, Avant-garde and Psychedelic Rock is Prog so not all artists get added - there will always be some artists on the borderline, and that borderline is never in the same place for everybody. It's a fuzzy line with no clear boundary and one that shifts slightly with each addition and with each new member who posts on the forum ... some of the "controversial" suggestions of four years ago are now in the PA, many are not ... that's the dynamic nature of this archive, we're not stuck with some rigid definition, but one that is constantly changing. We need outlandish and extreme suggestions to test how far the boundaries have moved and can be moved. When most of those suggestions fail it is not a total disaster, it just demonstrates the limits of what we are prepared to consider, and if some of those suggestions do get in it really isn't the end of the world.
That's not to say that with time all suggested/rejected artists will get in, but if we don't keep testing the additions "policy" we have no real way of knowing what it is.
Edited by Dean - July 13 2010 at 04:32
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10401
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Posted: July 13 2010 at 04:42 |
AtomicCrimsonRush wrote:
10 pages of discussion? This should have ended with the first page with a post saying...
STEVIE W FOR PROG?.... keep dreaming.
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I don't know why you said that. The first time I read the definition of crossover the first person who came to my mind was Stevie Wonder. Which albums of his was your opinion based on?
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
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Points: 37575
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Posted: July 13 2010 at 05:10 |
On a related note: Patrick Moraz has been cleared for moving from JR/F to Crossover. 
...now, about Steely Dan... 
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Easy Money
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Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
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Points: 10401
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Posted: July 13 2010 at 05:25 |
Dean wrote:
On a related note: Patrick Moraz has been cleared for moving from JR/F to Crossover.
...now, about Steely Dan... |
This sort of ties in with what I said about Wonder above. When SD was being debated I made it a point to listen to a lot of SD records. Keep in mind I don't like SD and I consider their vocals to be annoying, but after listening to a lot of their music I decided I wouldn't have proposed them for PA, but I am fine with them being here. At least two of their albums, as I recall, are very progressive. Their other albums all show some effort in that direction. My point of course being how many people spouting opinions on Wonder have actually listened to his music outside of his radio 'hits'.
Edited by Easy Money - July 13 2010 at 05:28
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Dean
Special Collaborator
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Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: July 13 2010 at 05:46 |
Easy Money wrote:
This sort of ties in with what I said about Wonder above. When SD was being debated I made it a point to listen to a lot of SD records.
Keep in mind I don't like SD and I consider their vocals to be annoying, but after listening to a lot of their music I decided I wouldn't have proposed them for PA, but I am fine with them being here. At least two of their albums, as I recall, are very progressive. Their other albums all show some effort in that direction. |
But would those two very progressive albums, and the ones that show some effort in that direction, nudge them towards JR/F? In the past you have said that you thought it did.
Easy Money wrote:
My point of course being how many people spouting opinions on Wonder have actually listened to his music outside of his radio 'hits'. |
It's a fair question, but not one that should bother any subgenre team who does evaluate an artist as we are seldom swayed by "hit singles". Personnaly I have listened to Innervisions and Songs In The Key Of Life, plus a few other tracks posted here and on YouTube. Knowing "Happy Borthday", "Ebony & Ivory" and "Superstition" doesn't affect the evaluation.
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Finnforest
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Joined: February 03 2007
Location: .
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Points: 16913
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Posted: July 13 2010 at 06:17 |
Dean Dean Dean....you mailbox is full 
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: July 13 2010 at 06:21 |
Jim Jim Jim... I've made some space now
sorry  |
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Stevie Wonder for Progressive Motown
