The Atheist - Agnostic - Non religious thread

I am able to be wrong. There could be a god. I'm not sure he could possibly fit all the descriptions he's been given in all these holy books, but there could be a god and he could be aligned with one of these factions of believers on earth. He could send all them to heaven and all us to hell. This isn't reason to believe ("There could be a $100 bill under that dog turd") but I can not absolutely 100% rule out the possibility. (Some would say this makes me an agnostic rather than an atheist which might technically be true but how many atheists go around saying they know for a fact there is no god. Most atheists are open to agnosticism but are just very sure there isn't a god and call themselves atheists.)

Being able to be wrong is hugely important for intellectual development and success. If great minds like Newton and Edison had insisted that they were right, if they were unable to acknowledge that they might be mistaken about something, then they wouldn't have been great minds. It was an ability to go "Hey, these things we think might be WRONG... holy sh*t I had a check and they ARE wrong" that allowed them to see in different ways and thus discover.

And so we come to the theist. Most theists cannot say this. Find theists who go "Oh yeah the whole thing might be bullsh*t." I'm not saying they don't exist, but they're pretty damn rare, that's for sure. (And arguably, as I said above, if you do that you're not theist, you're an agnostic.) Every new experience is bent to fit the picture of being right. 2.5 million children under five in Somalia starve to death in a universe ruled by an all-loving and all-powerful god who only wants peace, love and happiness for us? Um, we'll think of something. We will not explore the possibility that we might be wrong and therefore we are useless to the advancement of society and humanity. Because if we made a mistake earlier down the line in the development of our conception of the universe, rather than going back and revising, we will allow it to remain there forever, causing damage for all eternity.

This is why I will not leave them be. They are bad for us. They will not adapt to real circumstances. They will not improve their conceptions. Out they go.

Edited by Textbook - April 04 2012 at 23:29

Is that addressed at me?

Newton was actually rather stubborn. Edison was as well.

I am still religiously agnostic.






Edited by JJLehto - April 05 2012 at 18:44

They have chosen but are worried that they chose wrong.

Spiritual Junk Food

Textbook wrote: Well duh, you kind of have to be to go against the status quo.

I meant it in a close minded way not in a stick to your principles way. My point is that great minds are often just as narrow and biased as anybody else.

Textbook wrote: Agnosticim makes no sense because it's *definitely* wrong.   There's either a god/afterlife or there isn't.   A believer could be right. An atheist could be right.   An agnostic must be wrong.   Now this doesn't matter much perhaps because one could be agnostic and lead a nice worthwhile life but I think when presented with a question, it's just good standard practise to select one of the options that doesn't have a 0% probability of being correct. Most agnostics live as atheists so perhaps in that sense they have chosen.

Do you know what agnosticism is? It doesn't hold that there's a middle ground between the existence and non-existence of an entity. It's essentially the idea that such an existence or non-existence cannot be verified. Rather than assert rather bluntly that there is no "god" thing, you're simply maintaining that there's no scientific/logical proof/disproof of the thing. Of course of these grounds, there's no reason to believe in the being. I don't see how that makes the agnostic wrong.

It's not a wild idea. See The Continuum Hypothesis for a real example.

I believe that people who believe in the existence of an all loving God and an eternal life after death are involved in "Wish Fullfilment" They want to believe it to be true so much, and it makes them feel SO good inside, that they cannot even consider thinking otherwise.
           And a lot of it is also based in a denial of what death really is-death is so frightening and negative, that they want their afterlife beliefs to smother that negativity.
                  In the end, what matters is the truth, not what makes you feel fantastic. i know how negative death is, too, but i accept it for what it really is.
          
                  Religion can be like a drug!

Textbook wrote: Agnosticim makes no sense because it's *definitely* wrong.   There's either a god/afterlife or there isn't.   A believer could be right. An atheist could be right.   An agnostic must be wrong.   Now this doesn't matter much perhaps because one could be agnostic and lead a nice worthwhile life but I think when presented with a question, it's just good standard practise to select one of the options that doesn't have a 0% probability of being correct. Most agnostics live as atheists so perhaps in that sense they have chosen.

Textbook you are correct.

Agnosticism is religion purged of faith, leaving the same religious doubt of the material world.

Atheism is an understanding of religion that negates it, by showing the process of the material world created it and the concept of God, in the course of human history.

RoyFairbank wrote: Textbook wrote: Agnosticim makes no sense because it's *definitely* wrong.   There's either a god/afterlife or there isn't.   A believer could be right. An atheist could be right.   An agnostic must be wrong.   Now this doesn't matter much perhaps because one could be agnostic and lead a nice worthwhile life but I think when presented with a question, it's just good standard practise to select one of the options that doesn't have a 0% probability of being correct. Most agnostics live as atheists so perhaps in that sense they have chosen. Textbook you are correct. Agnosticism is religion purged of faith, leaving the same religious doubt of the material world. Atheism is an understanding of religion that negates it, by showing the process of the material world created it and the concept of God, in the course of human history.

How does agnosticism leave a religious doubt of the material world?

presdoug wrote: lazland wrote: presdoug wrote: I believe that people who believe in the existence of an all loving God and an eternal life after death are involved in "Wish Fullfilment" They want to believe it to be true so much, and it makes them feel SO good inside, that they cannot even consider thinking otherwise.            And a lot of it is also based in a denial of what death really is-death is so frightening and negative, that they want their afterlife beliefs to smother that negativity.                   In the end, what matters is the truth, not what makes you feel fantastic. i know how negative death is, too, but i accept it for what it really is.                              Religion can be like a drug!   Sums it all up really. I include myself as one of those people who really want to believe because I find the alternative (nothing, forever) really rather frightening. Thanks for your response. And i hope i don't come across as insensitive to, or lacking in empathy with, people who turn to religion out of fear. Man, i fear death too.                  It is a hard thing to accept, isn't it, people. It is a crazy thing!

I don't think you're being insensitive, but you're vastly oversimplifying the situation.