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Can Prog Be Prog Without Drums?

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Poll Question: Please give examples of successful prog without the use of drums
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I prophesy disaster View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I prophesy disaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2018 at 16:02
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

What we have here is a failure to communicate.
 
Sorry, your reply to my original statement made me think about the difference between rock & roll and rock when it occurred to me whether rock & roll lends itself to being progressive in the sense of progressive rock.
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I prophesy disaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2018 at 16:09
Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

What we have here is a failure to communicate.
 
Sorry, your reply to my original statement made me think about the difference between rock & roll and rock when it occurred to me whether rock & roll lends itself to being progressive in the sense of progressive rock. 
 
But in response to your original reply, what is it that makes a completely acoustic piece of music rock?
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote twosteves Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2018 at 17:22
of course no drums needed to be prog ---I like prog with a good rhythm section so probably won't be my fav--

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ReactioninG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2018 at 17:53
I like the drums.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ForestFriend Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2018 at 18:09
Tubular Bells has very little drumming and I would say that's very successful as a prog album.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Man With Hat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2018 at 18:15
It is really hard to be rock music without drums. I'm not going to say impossible, but really, really hard. I can't really think of an example. Although this does lead me to think what it would sound like if you take famous classic rock songs and eliminate the drum tracks. But that's a tangent...Anyway, if it's not rock, it can't be progressive rock.
 
That said, of course you can have progressive music without drums.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nogbad_The_Bad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2018 at 18:50
Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

And prog can be without electric guitars and keyboards as well
 
But if it's without drums, electric guitars, and keyboards, is it still rock? And if it isn't rock, it can't be prog.
  

I personally find this statement (that I hear regularly here) ridiculous. I find loads of music I consider progressive rock that doesn't 'rock'. Progressive Rock is a broad genre categorization for a wide range of musical styles. Does Tangerine Dream rock? Does North Sea Radio Orchestra? Does Aranis?


Edited by Nogbad_The_Bad - May 28 2018 at 18:51
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2018 at 20:39
Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

What we have here is a failure to communicate.
 
Sorry, your reply to my original statement made me think about the difference between rock & roll and rock when it occurred to me whether rock & roll lends itself to being progressive in the sense of progressive rock. 
 
But in response to your original reply, what is it that makes a completely acoustic piece of music rock? 

I guess what would make you think that playing just acoustic is not rock? Again, I mentioned The Beatles' "Eleanor Rigby", which is devoid of all guitars, bass, keys and drums, and yet it is considered one of the finest rocks songs ever composed. Also, if one listens to the hundreds of folk-rock bands that were spawned from Bob Dylan's fertile acoustic womb, there are thousands of acoustic-based rock songs.

The divergence from blues or rhythm and blues-based rock and roll that occurred when Dylan strapped on an electric at Monterrey was at first a folk/rock synthesis (as employed at the same time by The Byrds, Simon & Garfunkel and The Beatles), so "acoustic rock" has been a staple rock genre since the mid-60s, predating prog elements, but only by a short time (The Beatles were to incorporate acoustic guitar folk rock with strings on "Yesterday", and became even more adventurous on the Stockhausen-influenced strident and staccato strings on "Eleanor Rigby" and Eastern sitar on "Hide Your Love Away"). Humorously enough, an acoustic version of Simon & Garfunkel's "The Sound of Silence" appears on the album Wednesday Morning, 3 AM, and the electric version with drums is on the next album Sounds of Silence. Each has virtually the same vocal tracks, so is one rock and one is not? LOL

These early classical, Eastern and folk influences in rock then merged with the burgeoning psychedelic scene and psych folk was born (bands like the It's a Beautiful Day, Donovan, Incredible String Band, and Tim Buckley, along with Jefferson Airplane and the Moody Blues on occasion). 

By the late 60s/early 70s, true progressive folk-rock ran parallel with the primarily British 2nd Folk Revival (with folks like Renbourn, Jansch, Martin Carthy, Nick Drake and folk-rock bands like Fairport Convention and Steeleye Span). Prog folk would include Comus, Jan Dukes de Gray, Jethro Tull, and Renaissance, who combined both folk and classical motifs. 

Roy Harper had a foot in both camps, but an album like Stormcock  is definitely progressive folk rock. Please listen to the song I provided earlier, "The Same Old Rock". It has multiple time signature changes, dense lyrics with a heightened sort of poetry that was a hallmark of folk rock since Dylan, classical influences, difficult chording and one hell of an instrumental section towards the end.

Another instance from around the same time, Led Zeppelin's "Battle of Evermore" has no electric guitar, bass or drums. There is Jimmy Page on mandolin, John Paul Jones plays acoustic guitar and recorder (and an EMS VCS 3 that is used as a voice effect), and Robert Plant and Sandy Denny of Fairport are singing. Not a person here would say it was not a "rock song" because there are no electrics or drums.

Jethro Tull has countless songs that employ just acoustic guitar and strings, like "Reasons for Waiting", just acoustic guitar and organ, such as "Sossity", long acoustic passages in Thick as a Brick and A Passion Play, or simply straight acoustic rock songs like "Solitaire", "One White Duck / 010 = Nothing at All", and "Salamander" that exhibits classic influences, blues, folk and rock in one concise 3 minute progressive package:



By the way, don't ever say just two acoustic guitars can't rock:










Edited by The Dark Elf - May 28 2018 at 21:06
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Walkscore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2018 at 20:40
I agree that music can be progressive without it being 'rock'. I love progressive music of all kinds, whether rock or jazz or anything else. 

As for the question regarding the drums, my own opinion is that there is a lot of great music being made with and without drums. However, I am myself not keen on drum *machines*. I would prefer to have no drums, than to have drum machines. 

Tangerine Dream is great with and without real drums. But I am not keen on their output with drum machines, just to take one example.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progmatic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2018 at 21:44
To answer the question, of course it can.

PROGMATIC
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mortte Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2018 at 22:05
I don´t think prog or music commonly needs any particural instrument. And in great folkprog there are not full drums, only percussions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BaldJean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2018 at 01:39
Originally posted by Walkscore Walkscore wrote:

I agree that music can be progressive without it being 'rock'. I love progressive music of all kinds, whether rock or jazz or anything else. 

As for the question regarding the drums, my own opinion is that there is a lot of great music being made with and without drums. However, I am myself not keen on drum *machines*. I would prefer to have no drums, than to have drum machines. 

Tangerine Dream is great with and without real drums. But I am not keen on their output with drum machines, just to take one example.

when drum machines came up in the 80s a lot of artists experimented with them (Peter Hammill and Amon Düül 2, for example), but it was only a short passing fad; they quickly noticed the limitations of them


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2018 at 02:34
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2018 at 03:32
Yes.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2018 at 03:59
Originally posted by Tapfret Tapfret wrote:

From my perspective Tangerine Dream stops being Prog when the drums start.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ReactioninG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 30 2018 at 11:40
Can there be prog without musicians? That's a good question.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrufordFreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 30 2018 at 16:34
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

And prog can be without electric guitars and keyboards as well....at least, in my world. You can listen to what you call prog in your own sphere. Wink



EXACTLY the artist/album I was thinking of when creating this post! Amazing!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrufordFreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 30 2018 at 16:35
Originally posted by Tapfret Tapfret wrote:

From my perspective Tangerine Dream stops being Prog when the drums start.

INTERESTING!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrufordFreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 30 2018 at 16:39
Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

And prog can be without electric guitars and keyboards as well
 
But if it's without drums, electric guitars, and keyboards, is it still rock? And if it isn't rock, it can't be prog.
 
 
 

This is the argument I was waiting for! The all-important "rock" determiner. I guess it's cuz part of me wishes this wonderful website/community could/would be more inclusive...a one-stop shop, if you will. And why not? It's bigger than any one person can ever exhaustively explore as it is, so why not go from the Kalamazoo College library to the Library of Congress? (Go big or stay home!)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrufordFreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 30 2018 at 16:42
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

David Sylvian's last "There is a light..." has no drums and is great. The North Sea Radio Orchestra doesn't use drums in the majority of songs, same for Karda Estra. There's lots of music without drums that I like, and some is categorised as prog.
However I tend to agree with the implication of this thread that drumming is very essential and music with and without it are very different on a quite elementary level, although there are things in between such as light percussion, sequencer, non-rhythmic drumming and drum machines (as far as they don't just imitate drums but are used to create a distinctively different feeling).
It's hard to justify having Zeit and Close to the Edge boxed together in the same genre really except regarding track lengths. But don't let me stop you from throwing them together.

Nice post! 

But still I say, "THROW THEM ALL TOGETHER! Forget discrimination! We are all one! It's all music!"
Drew Fisher
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