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Magma's Vander or Death's Schuldiner?
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Poll Question: Who is the greater innovator in your opinion?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
38 [56.72%]
13 [19.40%]
7 [10.45%]
4 [5.97%]
5 [7.46%]
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Uroboros View Drop Down
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Originally posted by rileydog22 rileydog22 wrote:

Vander pwns every death metal n00b in every catagory.  
 
Kid, take some time to grow up, then come back to us.
 
I'm inclined to vote for Schuldiner, but I think I'll try to be objective and go for the "both" option... since you can't really measure the significance of their contributions. However, I think Schuldiner's work over the years was more diverse - he created a style and then had the power to change it and give it new shape, bringing in new possibilities that influenced new trends. There are followers of the early Death period, as well as those who expanded on the band's more recent tendencies. Magma stayed more or less in the same area and, as far as I can tell, K.A. still sounds like it would have been made in the seventies (but I have to say it sounds great).
Very nice poll.
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Originally posted by rileydog22 rileydog22 wrote:

Vander pwns every death metal n00b in every catagory.  
 
Crude way of putting it, but true... and I can see why you'd phrase it that way... Wink
 
Vander is not restricted by style or genre, and truly experimental, since "Zeuhl" is about as broad a genre as you can get, while Death Metal is confined to quiet/loud metal arrangements and simple song structures - it's not as complex as its devotees would have people believe - while "Zeuhl" most definitely is.
 
Vander is teh 1337. LOL
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Uroboros View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

"Zeuhl" is about as broad a genre as you can get, while Death Metal is confined to quiet/loud metal arrangements and simple song structures - it's not as complex as its devotees would have people believe - while "Zeuhl" most definitely is.
 
 
I hope you're just trying to be funny.
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I have a feeling that Mr. Schuldiner was only partially responsible for popularising death metal... weren't there more than a few early bands from the same scene all building on each other's sound?

Vander created something less precedented with the sort of longevity that I appreciate (whereas death metal is now something I listen to only occasionally) is a more interesting musician to my ears and I think his existence also lead to the creation of other great french bands I listen to. no contest for me.

edit: but while I was into extreme metal in earnest I really enjoyed listening to Death and Control Denied, and it's a shame that it was all over so quickly.


Edited by laplace - May 03 2007 at 02:51
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Originally posted by Uroboros Uroboros wrote:

Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

"Zeuhl" is about as broad a genre as you can get, while Death Metal is confined to quiet/loud metal arrangements and simple song structures - it's not as complex as its devotees would have people believe - while "Zeuhl" most definitely is.
 
 
I hope you're just trying to be funny.
 
Why would I be when that's the demonstrable fact of the matter? Confused


Edited by Certif1ed - May 03 2007 at 03:52
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Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by rileydog22 rileydog22 wrote:

Originally posted by TheProgtologist TheProgtologist wrote:

Schuldiner was an innovator,he practically created a musical genre singlehandedly.
 
Nuff said.


I coulda sworn Vander did something like that too...............


I sure don't know much about death metal... but one of our metal experts might  explain.. just what was so innovative about Death Metal.  In my eyes sort of like creating a new flavor of ice cream.. versus what Vander did which create the wheel in comparison.
 
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I really doubt if Schuldiner can be credited as the SOLE creator of death metal. And even if he can then yes, overall it is like creating a new flavour of ice cream.

Vander? No idea, to be honest. I've heard seemingly knowledgeable people here (in this case 'seemingly knowledgeable people' means Dallas Bryan) say that Vander got 'his' ideas from less-known composers, whose names I don't remember now... not that I necessarily believe nor disbelieve it, just would like to point out this possibility...

The wheel? A sligtly ellipsoid one maybe. Will help you get where you want to, but the journey itself will get tiresome after a while. In general, Magma isn't a bad band, but it's nothing special.

Japanese zeuhl on the other hand... it's great to see the pupil outgrow the teacher.

Edited by Visitor13 - May 03 2007 at 05:36
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Originally posted by Syzygy Syzygy wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by rileydog22 rileydog22 wrote:

Originally posted by TheProgtologist TheProgtologist wrote:

Schuldiner was an innovator,he practically created a musical genre singlehandedly.
 
Nuff said.


I coulda sworn Vander did something like that too...............


I sure don't know much about death metal... but one of our metal experts might  explain.. just what was so innovative about Death Metal.  In my eyes sort of like creating a new flavor of ice cream.. versus what Vander did which create the wheel in comparison.
 
ClapClapClapClap


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i don't see some reason to compare these two....vander of course
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It's like in literature Marcel Proust vs Dan Brown.
Not Christian Vander is Dan Brown, of course.Wink
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Originally posted by TheProgtologist TheProgtologist wrote:

Sorry guys but I don't like Magma and don't care for Vander.
 
Schuldiner was an innovator,he practically created a musical genre singlehandedly.
 
Nuff said.
 
Wait a minute - I thought it was Possessed who did that... http://www.metal-observer.com/articles.php?lid=1&sid=1&id=3690 Wink
 
The question is who is the greater innovator, not who do you prefer Tongue


Edited by Certif1ed - May 03 2007 at 08:26
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Visitor13 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Norbert Norbert wrote:

It's like in literature Marcel Proust vs Dan Brown.
Not Christian Vander is Dan Brown, of course.Wink


An insult to Schuldiner and a significant underestimation of Proust. Great.

EDIT: Props to Certified for mentioning Possessed.

Edited by Visitor13 - May 03 2007 at 08:54
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Manu... I mean Visitor!Hug
 
Schuldiner. And some of you are being extremely ignorant and elitist here.
 
Zheul is another subgenre of progressive rock, while Death metal another subgenre of metal.
 
Yeah now I'm gonna be the igronat one...  Tongue
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Hey Ed! Great to see you again
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Freaky prog extreme metal..... Freaky prog weirdo fusion

Apples and Oranges are both very nice kinds of fruit in their own way... just depends on what you're in the mood for.... or what's on sale at the store.
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Originally posted by Ed_The_Dead Ed_The_Dead wrote:

Manu... I mean Visitor!Hug
 
Schuldiner. And some of you are being extremely ignorant and elitist here.
 
Zheul is another subgenre of progressive rock, while Death metal another subgenre of metal.
 
Yeah now I'm gonna be the igronat one...  Tongue
 
Indeed - have you actually heard everything Magma/Vander have done?
 
You can't really squeeze it into one single genre, and much of it is formally experimental - while Death Metal is but a small corner of the bigger metal genre, with simple and logical constructs - no matter what scales or time signatures have been used.
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ugh.... Dead

this rotten elitist asshole attitude a lot of people have got going here could really turn people off from wanting to explore the Zeuhl genre... has done so for me, at least Dead
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Originally posted by magnus magnus wrote:

ugh.... Dead

this rotten elitist asshole attitude a lot of people have got going here could really turn people off from wanting to explore the Zeuhl genre... has done so for me, at least Dead



Well as a card carrying member of the asshole prog elitist club, I'll take that as a complement Clap and validation of our credo that is heaps of time sig changes  and scales do not make anything prog... or particularly interesting for that matter.   It is about making challenging, thoughtful, and many times beautiful.... artistic music.LOLWink

I'd check Magma out, you might like it... if you don't decide to.... it's your loss, not ours.
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I didn't vote I only know Darth Vander.



  
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Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by magnus magnus wrote:

ugh.... Dead

this rotten elitist asshole attitude a lot of people have got going here could really turn people off from wanting to explore the Zeuhl genre... has done so for me, at least Dead



Well as a card carrying member of the asshole prog elitist club, I'll take that as a complement Clap and validation of our credo that is heaps of time sig changes  and scales do not make anything prog... or particularly interesting for that matter.   It is about making challenging, thoughtful, and many times beautiful.... artistic music.LOLWink

I'd check Magma out, you might like it... if you don't decide to.... it's your loss, not ours.
 
 
No, it's not his loss. He is just momentarily disgusted, but he'll probably find enough time and motivation to explore and discover anything he wants to at some point. You, on the other hand, are trapped in your golden age of choice, where it's comfy and warm and not much has been happening since the grand ideas have been stated. Of course you're not really able to explain exactly why Magma is so great and terribly avantgarde, but you are a "specialist" in your field so you're in the position to throw condescendent smiles at the underinformed, confused youth and their recent reference points. Lucky for the world, not all young people are asleep. My generation needs breathing space and its own, distinct collective memory, which includes your memory and much more and doesn't stop expanding. In case you weren't sure, the rainbow has infinitely many colours and some have eyes for many of them.
 
For whoever will have to intervene and stop this thread from degenerating, I just want to say I realise I'm being mean and uncivil, but I couldn't contain myself. Some people obviously talk more than they listen and I'm not ok with that. I apologize in advance.
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