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Rivertree 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Band Submissions
Joined: March 22 2006
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 17601
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 Posted: February 05 2011 at 07:25 |
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how can someone write insightful without having an unformatted opinon?
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995
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Posted: February 05 2011 at 07:26 |
Well I just don't understand Moshkito's point at all. Who can seperate ones personal view of something and what they feel about something when writing about it. What would pure "facts" tell us?
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LinusW
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 27 2007
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 10665
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Posted: February 05 2011 at 07:28 |
 Snow Dog wrote:
What would pure "facts" tell us? |
Very little.
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harmonium.ro
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 18 2008
Location: Anna Calvi
Status: Offline
Points: 22989
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Posted: February 05 2011 at 07:33 |
Snow Dog wrote:
Well I just don't understand Moshkito's point at all. Who can seperate ones personal view of something and what they feel about something when writing about it. What would pure "facts" tell us? |
I suppose a review could be stripped down to bare facts up to a degree, but I don't know how useful would that be. I don't think that could even be called a review. One can describe the elements of the music, but to say if those elements work together as a piece of music means judgment (ergo, opinion).
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irrelevant
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 07 2010
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 13382
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Posted: February 05 2011 at 07:36 |
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A review made up of pure facts is useless.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32491
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Posted: February 05 2011 at 08:40 |
Epignosis wrote:
"Subjective opinions" is like saying "two twins" or "the male penis." |
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NotAProghead
Special Collaborator
Errors & Omissions Team
Joined: October 22 2005
Location: Russia
Status: Offline
Points: 7723
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Posted: February 05 2011 at 10:13 |
Easy Livin wrote:
Of course we should be respectful towards the artists, reviews should never degenerate into personal insults. Constructive critisism is perfectly valid though.
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I think it's the key point.
Atavachron wrote:
Well a good writer is also an artist, why don't they deserve the same sensitivity? |
We are more delicate with our "writers" than with artists.
For example, I don't like some reviewers' styles, but If I'll risk to critisize them I already know the answers: "It's their right to express themselves in a way they like", "Many site visitors like their reviews", "Come and write better reviews" etc. There is a community, we have virtual (or real) friends and even a constructive critisism can look as a personal attack.
From the other hand, everybody (well, some of us) thinks that he has the right to teach artists: Keith Emerson should not do this, Phil Collins should not do that and so on.
Edited by NotAProghead - February 05 2011 at 10:15
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Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995
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Posted: February 05 2011 at 10:19 |
harmonium.ro wrote:
Snow Dog wrote:
Well I just don't understand Moshkito's point at all. Who can seperate ones personal view of something and what they feel about something when writing about it. What would pure "facts" tell us? |
I suppose a review could be stripped down to bare facts up to a degree, but I don't know how useful would that be. I don't think that could even be called a review. One can describe the elements of the music, but to say if those elements work together as a piece of music means judgment (ergo, opinion).
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I suspect that Moshkito made this thread due to me. From a comment I made elswhere. Glad I'm not going mad.
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Evolver
Special Collaborator
Crossover & JR/F/Canterbury Teams
Joined: October 22 2005
Location: The Idiocracy
Status: Offline
Points: 5482
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Posted: February 05 2011 at 10:49 |
Reviews are opinions.
It's best to back up the opinions with examples.
We don't always do that.
So what?
Read, and use the opinions that matter to you.
Discount the rest.
Problem solved.
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Trust me. I know what I'm doing.
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: February 05 2011 at 12:25 |
LinusW wrote:
Snow Dog wrote:
What would pure "facts" tell us? |
Very little. |
Unless you're blind and can't read the track list...
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timothy leary
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 29 2005
Location: Lilliwaup, Wa.
Status: Offline
Points: 5319
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Posted: February 05 2011 at 13:13 |
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Music especially lyrical music is opinion.
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13365
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Posted: February 05 2011 at 13:52 |
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I've written a lot of reviews on the site now. Each and every one of them is an opinion based upon the music I listened to. I fail to see how it can be anything else.
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: February 05 2011 at 14:29 |
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One of the most important thing in a review is the listener's opinion about the music. if I wanted to get a history lesson about a genre that doesn't mean anything or some verbal bullsh*t Pitchfork w**kery, I would read Pitchfork and then shower afterward because that site is full of twit reviewers. Maybe their review is clever, whatever.
1) Listen to music
2) Describe feel, tone, timbre of the music
3) Describe production aesthetic
4) Describe any highs and especially jarring lows
5) Determine whether the lyrics are actually good (hard for prog rock, I know)
6) Describe how the songs make you feel
If you can do those well with accuracy to how you envision the album, and your vocabulary and flow isn't horrible, congrats you just wrote one of the least pretentious, most helpful, and best reviews on the Internet.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29625
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Posted: February 05 2011 at 15:46 |
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They start off in this key at this time signature and then the do this key at this time signature. They use these particular instruments. This was recorded in this year and released in this year. These guys recorded it in this location. It was engineered by this guy. Nothing wrong with including factual stuff in your reviews, but reviews are more interesting with opinions.
Edited by Slartibartfast - February 05 2011 at 15:51
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
Status: Offline
Points: 17733
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Posted: February 05 2011 at 16:30 |
I'm not sure what Mosh's point he is trying to make...but all I can think of is maybe some of the "bad" reviews that get posted. I don't do reviews because they are exactly that... my opinion...and my opinion is no better than the next persons.
What I don't think is being used correctly is the rating system. A 1 star does not mean its "krapp, horrible, junk, never should been issued, don't buy it"...yet people use it to express their opinion more when they feel that is the case.
If I am not mistaken there is no rating for "junk".
Maybe Moshkito needs to "review" his original post and amend it to convey his feelings better.....sometimes it is hard for some to express their true feelings in the first shot.
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995
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Posted: February 05 2011 at 17:24 |
Catcher10 wrote:
I'm not sure what Mosh's point he is trying to make...but all I can think of is maybe some of the "bad" reviews that get posted. I don't do reviews because they are exactly that... my opinion...and my opinion is no better than the next persons.
What I don't think is being used correctly is the rating system. A 1 star does not mean its "krapp, horrible, junk, never should been issued, don't buy it"...yet people use it to express their opinion more when they feel that is the case.
If I am not mistaken there is no rating for "junk".
Maybe Moshkito needs to "review" his original post and amend it to convey his feelings better.....sometimes it is hard for some to express their true feelings in the first shot.
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All I know is in another thread he said reviews shouldn't be about opinions (that's the gist) and I disagreed. I wish I kinew whitch thread.
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995
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Posted: February 05 2011 at 17:30 |
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
Status: Offline
Points: 17733
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Posted: February 05 2011 at 20:24 |
Thanks Dog.....I do agree that opinion is part of the review and would argue a large part at that. I don't look at ratings, but read the commentary and use that to judge how much I want to buy, download an album....or not pay attention to it.
Although with my Zune Marketplace account I can pretty much preview anything, download it and then decide if I want to get the CD or vinyl.
So again, I think Mosh is pretty smart I just wonder if he is articulating himself well enough...but then again who am I to judge anyone.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 16594
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Posted: February 09 2011 at 19:45 |
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Also, you shouldn't feel compelled to oppose him simply because you're on a website he's describing, perhaps even one he's thinking of, since we've had entertaining run ins with him before. I think he would recognize the prog reviewers as being an informed opinion, although they don't have the blessing of somebody working for dead media, so maybe not. |
I think this is missing the point of the discussion and taking things a bit further than necessary.
The request is for the writing to be a bit more than just a bar room discussion, which is a fun discussion amidst friends, not a "review" or a "literary criticism" as things are usually done and marked up in Europe.
In America, no one cares because "literary criticism" doesn't exist and the only thing that you can find is kissash stuff on stars ... so because the music is about that ... you are critical ... and if you want to write a review about that do so, but don't sit here like in a drunken rumble after a few extra beers on a Saturday Night with all of us ... but in the end, politeness is what gets you somewhere ... it may not be your favorite .. fine ... DON'T WRITE ABOUT IT ... but no ... your ego has to say something ... and at that point the review dies, because you are NOT being objective.
Please separate your personal feelings on this ... has nothing to do with anything else. Make it look like you are having to write an essay for your English teacher (Dean of course!) and it is due tomorrow, or Snow Dog, the enforcer, is not going to be very happy!
Forget the person stuff that you don't like that you find hippocritical ... show your class and ability by talking about something else that you find better ... and leave PT behind.
My preference is for not writing about bands of things that I have no preference with ... I am not going to sit here and trash something I don't like ... but a somment like the one above belongs in an board/forum, not in a review. Any teacher would give yo a D at best and tell you to go home and rewrite it, by taking the anger out. Which as you wrote it, you didn't do!
And that is a very fair request. IF, you can not write without the anger, and put together a review, then it is not a review ... it is a personal feeling that tickles your bullocks ... but I'm sure that you are intelligent enough to write something orderly and without the need to be angry and still make your point.
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 16594
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Posted: February 09 2011 at 19:51 |
The T wrote:
The one factor that has made PA what it is, you want to eliminate: the ability for any Joe tp review any album of any geek with a guitar and an ego... Sorry. Don't support one damn bit. |
I don't want to suggest that any Joe that wants to review anything can NOT do a review ... what I am saying is that we should have 4 or 5 things that are required in the review ... and him saying that blah and blah is sh*t ... is not a review!
Now if he puts down the 10 explanations of why, and then the chemical explanations, and then even shows you pictorial valiadation of the statement ... how the hell can we disagree with him ... but notice that his "thesis" did not need any anger to get the point across! It's just very Jean Genet!  ((must read of course is "Our Lady of Flowers"), which is just right about the point here!
Edited by moshkito - February 09 2011 at 20:32
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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