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Dean 
Special Collaborator 
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
 Posted: March 21 2011 at 11:10 |
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Okay, done a lot of digging and more by luck than any special skills or super powers I have determined that the missing band for ID1851 was Cali≠gari - a visual kei band who sound somewhat poppy to me, even for a v-k band - little wonder they were quickly deleted (as far as I can tell they were gone by September 2005).
The person added both bands the day after he joined the site, (!), and he managed to add Dir En Grey into Various Artists.
 The gaps in the number appeared long before 2005 even, when Dir En Grey were added using ID 1866 the archive had 1726 bands listed.
This can be easily explained without masses of deletions if you look at this page from the wayback machine for Augutst 2005: http://replay.waybackmachine.org/20050811083446/http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive_rock_discography_PROGARCHIVES.asp
...you will see in the right hand column under NEW ARTISTS/BANDS two entries for FRAKTAL, one on id=1860 and the other on id=1861 ... today #1860 is "vacant" ... clearly the person adding the band added them twice.
Edited by Dean - March 21 2011 at 13:43 |
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Easy Livin
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: February 21 2004 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 15585 |
Posted: March 21 2011 at 11:48 |
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Spot on Dean, almost all of the deletions from the bands relate to errors, duplications, live testing etc.
There has been the very rare deletion of an addition other than that (the one which springs to mind are My Dying bride, and I think even they are here again now), but as you say this has been almost immediatly after the addition was made, I don't think we've ever removed a band who were added years or even months previously.
I accept that some bands were added prior to the formation of the genre teams, but these will have been reviewed by the teams since then. In any event, the majority of those were at the behest of the site founders, who originally were the only ones empowered to add bands.
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: March 21 2011 at 12:48 |
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In a sick and sad way, I am glad my warning that letting all these borderline/questionable/related bands was going to lead to a floodgate....
Maybe some disagree but I think, and know others think, lots of artist do not belong here. Hate to be a tight fist....but I just think the site needs to have some stricter standards. Because looser will just lead to more and more artists being added that do not deserve it. I would not mind seeing some stricter acceptance. Deleting albums is a sticky wicket since people will lose reviews. Instead of deleting, I propose an idea I had a while ago, one implemented on MMA, album by album. One prog (or maybe even proggy album) warrants the bands inclusion in whole?? While MMA style is fine, I always wanted an "album" section that is literally just the prog albums a band has done. I'm not sure what you mean by democratic but we could have a poll for every artist to be added to get the input of everyone. Final vote left to the team of course, but still they could see what we lowly forum members feel at least. Also this could be done to help sort out bands that my only have a few prog albums, or one, out of their discog. A lot of work it would take, but if enough people are serious about music to care, they'll take the time. |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: March 21 2011 at 14:00 |
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I assume you do know that a floodgate is a something that restrains and controls the flow of water... |
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008 Location: Wales Status: Online Points: 13365 |
Posted: March 21 2011 at 14:13 |
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Well, it's nice to see such a sensible opening post on this type of subject - thanks Damos  My personal preference would actually be to clean up the sub genres and look at placing albums, rather than artists, there. I know it would take one hell of a lot of work, but I, for one, would be more than happy to put the time in. As for Dean's exceptionally sensible suggestion re neutering Walter, I really could only support this if it was extremely long, painful, and done with sharp instruments clearly patented after 1989
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: March 21 2011 at 14:14 |
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Thanks bro. I assume you know opening one would cause any water on the outside to pour in and flood? With that out of the way! Just voicing my opinion. I's be a lowly forum member, a plebeian. Of course any change is out of my hands, that would be up to the PA Aristocracy! |
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 16 2006 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 31169 |
Posted: March 21 2011 at 14:16 |
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I'm sure JJ just omitted the crucial "the opening of" in his use of the idiom.
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: March 21 2011 at 14:23 |
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More like "everyone will know what I mean" But I forgot this is PA! You need to spell everything out or else everyone will call you out on it, even though its obvious what you meant... My posts are long enough already people! |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: March 21 2011 at 14:39 |
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Edited by Dean - March 21 2011 at 14:41 |
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Bonnek
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 01 2009 Location: Belgium Status: Offline Points: 4515 |
Posted: March 21 2011 at 15:04 |
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I've been giving this some thoughts as well lately as we have some bands in the Metal department thay may not be as Prog as we might want them to be: Kamelot, Epica, Nightwish, After Forever, Death ( )... The reason being that their existence on PA is inconsistent with the genre boundaries that we try to implement, and could cause people to argue "Hey, if X is here you need to add Y" A few weeks later I don't think it's worth the trouble. First of all there is generally little interest in these bands, resulting in few and rather low ratings. Secondly, their existance here hasn't caused the addition of loads of other bands (Within Temptation, Lacuna Coil or whatever), so the "floodgate" effect is rather minor or even non-existent I'd say. And the mentioning of "Death" above is partly a joke of course, but it's partly also to indicate that some bands may not be Prog to someone (me for instance) but they still might be for many others. So I don't see how a democratic majority could be established for a "deletion". Unanimous by the genre team? Unanimous by all teams? Unanimous by Admins? ... Edited by Bonnek - March 21 2011 at 15:06 |
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Chris H
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 08 2006 Location: Charlotte, NC Status: Offline Points: 8191 |
Posted: March 21 2011 at 19:33 |
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If we're going to clean up anything, splitting Math Rock and Post Rock should be step number one...but I might be biased. |
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Beauty will save the world.
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: March 21 2011 at 19:55 |
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All of it of course Dean, need to comb the site.
Hope you're not getting defensive, this is just a website Death is a good example of a band that really makes no sense, and opens up the chance for other bands that don't belong. I know it'd be a hell of a project but a "Prog Album" makes sense. Bands that have one or two albums can get the recognition they deserve without adding the band and causing a storm. Also I've heard there is only one PMT that covers Prog Metal, Post/Experimental and Tech/Extreme? And prog metal is pretty loaded, maybe make 3 teams instead of having the PMT do all that? Would lighten that load they are always talking about, (especially since they never seem to have enough people) and makes sense. Why have those 3 separate for the site but all done under one team? Edited by JJLehto - March 21 2011 at 20:05 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: March 21 2011 at 20:37 |
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*shrug* call that being pedantic if you like, but I don't fall for exaggeration, I like to get a clear picture of what the real scale of the problem is before thinking of ways to tackle it. I don't see the logic in mounting a major site overhaul for a handful of bands that we will never get a consensus on. All that will do is create unnecessary tension and argument.
A "prog album" category has been considered and rejected. It may happen in the far future, but it is unlikely to happen in the near future. Our rule is "One Prog Album" and the artist can be added to the database, and that means adding the whole discography. I double-checked the meaning and interpretation of this with M@X on March 4th and he has confirmed that this is his wish.
The MMA is a good test-bed for these kinds of ideas since it is a smaller, younger site managed by a lot fewer people - change is quicker to implement there because of that, which means that mistakes can be rectified quicker too.
The future split of the PMT into three teams is something we have discussed during the reformation of the team earlier in the year. For the time being the team will remain as is, with the three subs being "championed" by individual PMT members under the leadership of Karl. This is the most effective way of managing the existing workload and from the evidence of the past 3 months, is working better than expected. What happens in the future is up to Karl and the PMT with whatever assistance they need from Angelo and myself. Edited by Dean - March 21 2011 at 20:50 |
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: March 21 2011 at 20:47 |
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Yes sire.
I should not have spoken, back to my cave  It's dark in there |
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 16 2006 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 31169 |
Posted: March 21 2011 at 20:49 |
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And now for an off-topic: I always thought Dean's avatar was Tracy Ullman
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: March 21 2011 at 20:49 |
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Chris S
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: June 09 2004 Location: Front Range Status: Offline Points: 7028 |
Posted: March 22 2011 at 01:02 |
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Let the PA " animal" breathe.......a work in progress formed by thousands of individual' hours and dedication. Let it be.
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...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
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DamoXt7942
Forum & Site Admin Group
Avant/Cross/Neo/Post Teams Joined: October 15 2008 Location: Okayama, Japan Status: Offline Points: 17488 |
Posted: March 23 2011 at 05:59 |
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Erm, thanks mates posting here, for throwing opinions and comments to me ... especially Dean and Bob, many appreciated to explain the meaning of "vacant" artist ID seats.
 Everyone hopes PA can show something of improvement, but almost all cannot accept opportunities of drastic change ... as I've expected previously ... but this result is pretty alright for me, because this thread is not an order nor a persuasion, but my proposal with humble opinions. 
). Anyway, it's a pity here's not come who I would like to ask for these controversial issues. 
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 23 2005 Location: Caerdydd Status: Offline Points: 32995 |
Posted: March 23 2011 at 06:13 |
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Oh dear.
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Offline Points: 19740 |
Posted: March 23 2011 at 06:26 |
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If some of the additions during the "PA infancy stage" , starting in january 2004, (define how long was its "infancy"
) are debatable... it's generally very much obscure ones, so we'd probably not make a difference in that regardBack then (in the "infancy"), there was so much 100% prog acts to add, that no-one actually thought about including non-prog acts...
In late 2005 (Sept to Nov), there was a huge upheaval and the prog-related genre was created precisely to allow a first clean-up and teams were set-up from that moment onwards (and that's where the problems started
 ) , so I'd sat that PA's infancy lasted from Feb 04 until Nov 05. |
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
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Reforming the PA database in democratic manner
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DamoXt7942 wrote:
