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al stewart prog or not ?

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Logan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2025 at 09:20
We have Crossover for kinds of Pop Prog. It's never an exact science, the site has changed, teams/ personnel have changed, categories have changed over the years, parameters have changed with new additions and rejections, some are more convincing at making their cases than others, it can depend on which specific music is highlighted, what music is available at the time of evaluation. And if making comparisons, it's better to not only compare like-to-like but to compare to strong, related cases that were included in PA's Prog categories. A sort-of X is here and that is a poor addition, Y is not and has more merit than X therefore Y should be seriously considered is a very weak kind of argument to the point that it actually can hinder inclusion because the two wrongs don't make a right thinking kicks in.

I was on the fence, but Al Stewart was rejected for Prog Related. Historian (George) had known him better than I and firmly said no. Damo (Keishiro) and I considered his points and agreed. At this point I consider discussion of him in PR as academic.

Edited by Logan - March 27 2025 at 09:27
Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hrychu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2025 at 23:04
Originally posted by grantman grantman wrote:

al stewart is progressive rock or not
Man, you make it sound like you assume that "being prog" is some kind of on/off toggle switch. 🤣

IMO it's a stupid approach. "Progity" (progness?) of music is more of a spectrum. 😜😝
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2025 at 09:00
Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

Originally posted by grantman grantman wrote:

al stewart is progressive rock or not
Man, you make it sound like you assume that "being prog" is some kind of on/off toggle switch. 🤣

IMO it's a stupid approach. "Progity" (progness?) of music is more of a spectrum. 😜😝

HI,

I have a slightly different idea ... music has been progressive for hundreds of years, even if the "changes" that made it so changed from a small bunch of players, to a full orchestra some 50/75 years later, which changed the idea of composition a heck of a lot. And in the middle of the 20th century we changed back to 3, 4 or 5 players or instruments ... though the technical side of the instruments and music has improved in ways that can not be measured.

Since the beginning of the 20th century, it has been pretty much about taking down all the rules, and the weird, and craziest thought of all is that "progressive" was determined to have rules that it has to follow, which, is totally bizarre and against all of history of music ... specially as all the "ideas" and "definitions" were ALL decided and made AFTER THE FACT ... not before or during.

It has become a toggle switch (love your idea) because too many folks are not good listeners, is all I can think of, and spend their time choosing which color makes better sense in the rainbow of our minds.

I keep thinking that in general terms the whole thing has become so regressive, it's not even funny, and this is why I do not exactly support any band or decision for being added here or not. I'm of the opinion that we have to respect the music a lot more, and I have this weird idea that too many of the folks "voting" don't like too many things, to be able to be objective all around ... I can't exactly verify that, but the thought is there, though some of the voting folks do not say a whole lot ... and maybe that is the problem, we need a couple more collaborators/admins that can vote and perhaps help the whole process, but the choices have been so strange, and are (likely) better centered on what they can get out of you to help the database, than it is what your vote is about. 

My old roomie, is one of the best code folks making an ungodly amount of goodness for it, and his take on the whole thing? Most code folks know almost nothing about music ... though they certainly do about Dr. Pepper and Pizza! And he's the one that said ... "that puts a new meaning in what music is!" ... after we caught the KC show with the 3 drunkards in Seattle ... sorry ... drummers!

I think PA has a good idea, but I hope they add a few more MUSICAL folks to the whole thing ... I kinda wish that things were not left up to folks to create polls of their favorites ... yeah, it's about the fans ... but does that mean the music is not important? Time out! Where is that person? (Certainly not wasting his/her time on PA!) .... (we need to change that!)


Edited by moshkito - March 28 2025 at 09:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2025 at 09:22
Prog (noun, as a genre and commonly short for Progressive Rock) does not equal progressive (adjective). I agree that creating a Prog/ Non-Prog dichotomy commonly is problematic (not always), and expecting one here to choose one or the other (Prog or not-Prog) is problematic, and that Prog is a spectrum. I would post that music has been progressive for thousands of years, but that some kind of music has progressed more at certain times and places.

As for what they would do at PA, it's set-up so that it can act as "we" and please demonstrate by example, do it oneself, instead of wishing what others would do and/oor saying what one thinks others should do. Otherwise, maybe try to find a site with more like-minded people, although I think that would be a challenge.

Edited by Logan - March 28 2025 at 09:28
Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2025 at 21:07
Originally posted by Pietro Otello Romano Pietro Otello Romano wrote:

The location is there: ‘Prog Related’. The problem is that especially between the end of the 60s and the beginning of the 70s, progressive music was a wave that swept the world, influencing more or less all the artists on the market. Italy in particular (I was there) was very affected by the phenomenon and even artists, that I would struggle to consider rock like Riccardo Cocciante or Opera, had vague Prog influences.

Do we want to create the category Pop Prog and then Battisti would perhaps make some sense?

But going back to he topic: Al Stewart, the prog influences are not only present in the two best known albums: ‘Past, Present and Future’ & ‘Year of the Cat’, but already from the first work ‘Bedsitter Images’, which is dated 1967, in some tracks we can find traces of Prog if not in the construction of the songs in the arrangement and in the use of instruments.


I quote a few tracks from memory: ‘A Long Way Down From Stephanie’, ‘Beleeka Doodle Day’, ‘Cleave To Me’.


Let us remember that at that time Prog was not yet known as such, there were the Moody Blues and Procol Harum, and the masterpieces that would pave the way for the Golden Age were still to come: 1969 In the Court... 1969 Tommy etc... The albeit vague prog influences in the aforementioned tracks therefore acquire a wider dimension when compared to the period, as an autonomous choice of the author to make a certain type of music rather than follow the wave a few years later when prog was also consolidated as a business.

However, it is certainly not only for "Bedsitter Images" that I think Al Stewart could be here. For example "Love Chronicles" (1969) outside the 18-minute title track, which I consider more of an elongated song than a suite, there is "Ballad Of Mary Foster" which despite a somewhat sparse arrangement has a vaguely Prog construction. Also worthy of note is "Life & Life Only" with an interesting, somewhat psi-esque ending.

From the following album "Zero She Flies" I point out the beautiful "Manuscript" which reminded me of the best Procol Harum, especially in the use of keyboards.


The following album "Orange" (1972) definitely has a more marked prog imprint. The album highlight "The news from Spain" would not look out of place on an album by Procol Harum or Barclay James Harvest. Also worthy of note is the instrumental track "Once an orage, always an orange" with its slightly baroque tones and a guitar sound that recalls, even in the composition, Steve Howe and "Night of the 4th of may" for the slightly psychedelic crescendo, especially in the use of keyboards like Vanilla Fudge or Deep Purple. Interesting even if less classifiable in the Prog field is also "Songs out of clay".


The influences from Steve Howe and, less marked, from Yes in general become more evident in the following album "Past, Present And Future" (1972). I think that the majority of those present on this forum know "Nostradamus" the main reason why this thread is most likely open. But I would like to point out the magnificent "Road to Moscow". Here too the sounds of the more acoustic Steve Howe are very evident as in the composition embellished by the strings in crescendo.

Sorry but I know Battisti quite well, my sister was a fan, and from memory I can't think of anything even comparable to these two songs.
In addition, from the same album there are also "Old Admirals" and "Last Day Of June 1934" which have, especially the first, vague Prog sounds.


I don't want to go on with the whole discography and I leave out the most famous work "the Year of the Cat", which perhaps has only the sound of Prog, but in my opinion the excursions into the field of Prog by the artist have been if not frequent at least periodic throughout his career. I quote from memory "Life in dark water" and "Palace of Versailles" from Time Passeges (1978), "Rocks in the Ocean" from 24 Carrots (1980) and "Helen and Cassandra" from Last Days of the Century (1988).

In conclusion, in my very personal opinion, if you ask me if Al Stewart is proper Prog, I too have my doubts, but then probably 50% of the artists on progarchives shouldn't be there. According to this (strict) principle, not even Pink Floyd, by their own declaration, should be here!
But if you ask me if Al Stewart should or shouldn't be here, the matter is completely different.
I'll start by saying that I've been a member and a regular visitor to the site for many years precisely because of the courage to break with certain patterns. Courageous inclusions like Legendary Pink Dots, David Sylvian and in the years to follow Kauan, EF, Black Country New Road etc... are more than welcome because they contribute to keeping Prog alive and not a dead language spoken only in the narrow circles of NeoProg.

So under this beautiful extended umbrella of Prog, why a sensitive and innovative artist like Al Stewart doesn't find space for me is just as inexplicable as the fact that Battisti is there instead.


Greetings and happy Prog to all

Ps: sorry if I didn't link all the songs mentioned. They are all available on YouTube and anyone who wants to learn more just copy and paste the title :)


Thanks, but also Russians and Americans released in 1984 was an actual concept album about the cold war and a very good one with some out and prog (Rumours of War) as well as diversified jazz and folk stuff and in general a very nice Alan Parsons Project vibe going through it. This is an artist that is not well appreciated at all and his good work stretches well beyond Year Of The Cat (a very good but slightly overrated album that because Alan Parsons produced gets way too much attention). He is easily 'prog related' just for his 1976 -1988 output. (IMO)


Edited by richardh - March 30 2025 at 21:08
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