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AFlowerKingCrimson View Drop Down
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Points: 19328 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 20 2023 at 16:14
It's a good list. A little bit predictible and a bit light on "modern" prog bands but a good list overall. I guess no room  for Wobbler, Big Big Train not to mention the bands who "saved" prog in the 80s and 90s like Saga, IQ, Pendragon, Anglagard, Spock's Beard, The Flower Kings, Echolyn, etc. But other than that not a bad list. 

Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - July 20 2023 at 16:15
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terramystic View Drop Down
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Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by terramystic terramystic wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Gentle Giant? Knots/Cockroach King, I can see that. But many bands are doing vocal fugues in that style. And GG hardly invented that, it dates back to one J.S. Bach Wink


Actually J. S. Bach was the master of instrumental fugue. The Swingle Singers made vocal cover versions.


Sure, musically there is no difference, it was the fugue I was referring to, not the choice of instrument.

Yes, it's the same counterpoint technique. If we are precise GG were actually inspired by renaissance madrigals...

P.S.: Sorry for nitpicking. As a music teacher I just can't resist it.
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terramystic View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

The list is quite ok in terms of bands, there are some nice inclusions which are often missing from such lists.
Surely Dream Theater should be there, as the ones who popularized Prog Metal. 
Possibly IQ as well as they have been the staple of Neo Prog, with hindsight possibly even more than Marillion.
And ELP should be much higher as they were among the big 5 when in their peak, but yeah, we are already used to that aren't we?


Completely agree.

Also surprising to see Vangelis (otherwise one of my favorites) and Tangerine Dream on the list as it is supposed to be a prog rock list.


Edited by terramystic - July 20 2023 at 16:38
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I don't really see how one can say Haken don't deserve to be on the list despite bridging the gap for many proggers to the metal world, and for opening the door for modern metal heads to classic and modern prog, and then turn around and say Wobbler or The Flower Kings should be on the list. Sure, the latter was an instrumental part of that third wave mid-90s resurgence of Prog (the style/genre), but they bring nothing new to the table. Haken may not be the MOST original group out there, and I agree some of their newer albums (specifically Vector/Virus) have dipped too far into metal cliches (guess they had to cave to the larger portion of the fanbase there for a bit), but they are leagues more innovative than the TFK/Wobbler/Karfagen/[insert 70s-worshipping Euro band here] crowd. And I say that as someone who does enjoy me some music from those groups. I just lose interest after a while.
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Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

The top five and King Crimson at number one did not surprise me. I do think KC more deserving than Yes because I do think it has been more progressive, which included being varied in approach. And I don't think it ever sunk to the same lows as Yes or Genesis which were very low indeed, imo.


That's an EXCELLENT point. A prog artist should be calculated in its greatness by the average sum of its totality. KC never released anything as horrible as Genesis and even though i like pop Yes, KC does rule as far as prog longevity NOT to mention they got it started in 69 as a real movement.

Interesting - I focus more on releases than on artists, and that also means that when I'm asked to rate prog artists, I would look at their most progressive releases rather than the totality of their work.
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Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

The difference is pillaging from a classical composer from hundreds of years ago is what prog is all about (along with jazz). Pillaging from artists of the same era is more blatantly apparent. Also i find most Haken compositions underwhelming. I don't get the appeal. Always a few great tracks and then a bunch of fluff.

Disagree. So because GG were one of the first (and best) prog artists to do vocal fugues, that is now off-limits for all other contemporary artists who follow, or else they're thiefs? Makes no sense to me at all. As a musician I know that there are only 12 tones, basically. Everybody is "stealing" from everyone, and when you listen to any rock recording, except maybe for microtonal stuff you can be pretty certain that someone else did something very similar before. 

Inspired songwriting, great musicianship, great production (in that order) - that's what makes the difference IMHO. I think that Haken excel in these domains, but you're welcome to disagree. 


Edited by MikeEnRegalia - July 21 2023 at 01:00
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Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Not a chance. Haken have GG influences everywhere. That's just the most blatant. They also rip of Porcupine Tree, Van Der GG, etc. Personally i'm not impressed. Sure they do a decent job at it but do they deserve to be on a top prog band list of all time? I don't. Even Anglagard or Wobbler would've been a better pick simply for reinvigorating prog in a way that sounds fresh despite the apparent influences.

Listen to the Avkrvst album, that's what blatantly copying other artists (Opeth, SW/PT) sounds like. What Haken are doing, in my humble opinion, is paying homage to their favorite artists. They are very open about their influences, but I would argue that whenever they are doing that, they are also adding a new twist of their own, which Avkrvst fail to do. And that's all that prog artists can do, essentially - process all their influences into something that is not an exact copy of previous things, but not something completely new either.
 


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Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Not a chance. Haken have GG influences everywhere. That's just the most blatant. They also rip of Porcupine Tree, Van Der GG, etc. Personally i'm not impressed. Sure they do a decent job at it but do they deserve to be on a top prog band list of all time? I don't. Even Anglagard or Wobbler would've been a better pick simply for reinvigorating prog in a way that sounds fresh despite the apparent influences.

Exactly, they have GG *influences*. Like every good artists is influenced by other artists that came before. It is *how* you show these influences which makes all the differences. Listen to the new Avkrvst album as an example for how, in my opinion, you blatantly "rip off" other artists (Opeth, SW/PT). I would argue that Haken add sufficient input of their own, but of course that is a subjective call, and you're welcome to disagree. But bands like Anglagard and Wobbler are also showing their influences on their sleeves, and while I enjoy listening to them, I would hardly call their music "fresh" when compared with bands like Haken, BtBaM or Devin Townsend. 
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BaldJean View Drop Down
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Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ Interesting - what would be the most evident ripped-off tracks for The Mountain?


Most obvious? Gentle Giant. I just revisited that album recently to see if i changed my mind. I like it less every time i hear it. I do like the first two albums and "Virus." They're just too inconsistent for my ears but i do understand that they are popular :)

Gentle Giant? Knots/Cockroach King, I can see that. But many bands are doing vocal fugues in that style. And GG hardly invented that, it dates back to one J.S. Bach Wink

even further back to one Carlo Gesualdo (1566 - 1613), who killed his wife and her lover when he caught them in the act and in repentance wrote lots of beautiful madrigals. here an example:




Edited by BaldJean - July 21 2023 at 02:26


A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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^ Yes, 16th century is probably where "proper" fugues first appeared, even though according to wikipedia, the word first appeared as a theoretical concept in 1330.
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David_D View Drop Down
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Originally posted by UCR UCR wrote:

As we all know, every music critic's "best of" piece is created through rigorous experiments, with the results reviewed by a body of one's peers.

Just kidding. Turns out this list of the 50 Best Progressive Rock Artists was based on opinion, not objective fact. There is no guidebook or grand methodology: We didn't force ourselves to shoehorn in a certain number of acts from a particular style or era; we didn't consult Metacritic or the Billboard charts; we didn't require a band to have multiple Minimoogs in their keyboard rigs. We just thought about it a lot — and ultimately went with our gut.....

If to look at this list from inter-subjective point of view, as said already I find it to be quite good, but it could surely also be better, so I wouldn't put all too much weight on it.
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enigmatic View Drop Down
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Very good list. Personally I would replace couple prog-metal bands (not my thing) with Wobbler and Anglagard and couple recent prog bands with MO and RtF.
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siLLy puPPy View Drop Down
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Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

The difference is pillaging from a classical composer from hundreds of years ago is what prog is all about (along with jazz). Pillaging from artists of the same era is more blatantly apparent. Also i find most Haken compositions underwhelming. I don't get the appeal. Always a few great tracks and then a bunch of fluff.

Disagree. So because GG were one of the first (and best) prog artists to do vocal fugues, that is now off-limits for all other contemporary artists who follow, or else they're thiefs? Makes no sense to me at all. As a musician I know that there are only 12 tones, basically. Everybody is "stealing" from everyone, and when you listen to any rock recording, except maybe for microtonal stuff you can be pretty certain that someone else did something very similar before. 

Inspired songwriting, great musicianship, great production (in that order) - that's what makes the difference IMHO. I think that Haken excel in these domains, but you're welcome to disagree. 


Inspired songwriting is exactly what Haken lacks. Sorry but Haken reeks of GG ripoffs throughout its career. I'm underwhelmed. The newest album is downright boring for my ears. Not gonna argue about it. If you like them, it's ok :)

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Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Inspired songwriting is exactly what Haken lacks. Sorry but Haken reeks of GG ripoffs throughout its career. I'm underwhelmed. The newest album is downright boring for my ears. Not gonna argue about it. If you like them, it's ok :)

Well, it's a contrarian opinion, and you're entitled to it. Smile
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richardh View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Awesoreno Awesoreno wrote:

I don't really see how one can say Haken don't deserve to be on the list despite bridging the gap for many proggers to the metal world, and for opening the door for modern metal heads to classic and modern prog, and then turn around and say Wobbler or The Flower Kings should be on the list. Sure, the latter was an instrumental part of that third wave mid-90s resurgence of Prog (the style/genre), but they bring nothing new to the table. Haken may not be the MOST original group out there, and I agree some of their newer albums (specifically Vector/Virus) have dipped too far into metal cliches (guess they had to cave to the larger portion of the fanbase there for a bit), but they are leagues more innovative than the TFK/Wobbler/Karfagen/[insert 70s-worshipping Euro band here] crowd. And I say that as someone who does enjoy me some music from those groups. I just lose interest after a while.

I appreciate Haken a lot for the very reason that I don't like a lot of metal. You are very correct sir.

The confusion with Haken is that their most popular and well liked album (The Mountain) is also their least original. I pointed this out in my own review a while back. I much prefer Affinity and Vector and even the current album over it. Virus I was less keen on but it still has a couple of killer tracks and is not a write off by any means. I value them as much as I value Eloy for instance. I do like bands that occupy their own space and Haken do this most of the time extremely well.
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Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Inspired songwriting is exactly what Haken lacks. Sorry but Haken reeks of GG ripoffs throughout its career. I'm underwhelmed. The newest album is downright boring for my ears. Not gonna argue about it. If you like them, it's ok :)

Well, it's a contrarian opinion, and you're entitled to it. Smile


I just think that Haken has extreme potential and it's not quite living up to it. For my sensitive ears they often throw spaghetti on the wall to see what sticks instead of cohesively developing their ideas into a way that is truly their own. So far my favorite album is Visions. I like about half of The Mountain. It's not that they don't have some brilliant ideas that pan out, it's just that they are inconsistent. I'm not a contrarian at all. Many share this same opinion which is why many of their albums are rated low. IMHO there are many more prog metal bands that are both more innovative and more successful in crafting their own sound. Leprous for example is much better at creating a similar approach to prog metal.

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Catcher10 View Drop Down
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The Mountain is highly regarded for good reasons.......Now I do prefer Aquarius and Visions and Affinity is up there as well.
But to say they are leagues more innovative than TFK is kinda laughable. I doubt Haken will ever reach a pinnacle like Star Dust We Are, Unfold The Future or Flower Power.
I would have much preferred to see Riverside mentioned instead of Haken, Riverside has been as consistent as you can get....
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^ I think that Haken are several orders of magnitude more innovative than TFK. I really liked By Royal Decree, and I loved their best albums you mentioned back in the 2000s, but innovative? Not really, they were/are more retro.
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Catcher10 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ I think that Haken are several orders of magnitude more innovative than TFK. I really liked By Royal Decree, and I loved their best albums you mentioned back in the 2000s, but innovative? Not really, they were/are more retro.

I guess I would ask to define "innovative". What is Haken doing that others have not done already like Riverside did 5-8 years earlier? Leprous is more innovative than Haken if you ask me....
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One of the weak spots of this Top 50 Progressive Rock Artists list is that it doesn't show how much Prog Metal has been appreciated 
the last more than 30 years, even its definition of Progressive Rock includes this sub-genre. Something similar can be said concerning 
Electronic Prog and Krautrock.
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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