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WaywardSon 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 23 2006
Location: Brazil
Status: Offline
Points: 2537
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 Posted: July 09 2006 at 12:12 |
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Madonna "Like a Prayer" related to Prog?!! That really made me laugh!
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24392
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Posted: July 09 2006 at 12:20 |
 Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Micky, seems you have bad memory, you're part of a team already and you know how much preasure can be placed on us for just changing one band from Symphonic to Neo Prog or Art Rock. We're not eliminating a band, we're not adding a band, we're just changing a genre and still we got some serious debates in the Collaborators and Prog Lounge Forums. True, though luckily not too often.
Now multiply that for 10 if you as part of a team don't accept a determined album, you will have a lot of preasure if you refuse to add a hip hop or Disco album to that section.
Now multiply that for 10 again if you add a Rolling Stones, Earth Eind & Fire or Boston album, some people will start to make problems, there are still members making a lot of noise because Kansas is here. This is true, but I don't really know whether we should let ourselves be influenced by what people think. No one will always agree on everything. Obviously IMHO.
Then, you would need a team not only formed by specialist on one but in every genre, I can't get the difference between RIO and Post Rock or Death Prog Metal and Viking Prog Metal, so you would need at least 10 members. I'm not sure about this...
Now add the time gap, you know we have to stay until 2 am and Raffaella has to wake at 5 or 6 AM to discuss with us. How many members are willing to do that? How true.., but I wouldn't miss it for anything in the world! I'm proud to be a member of the Three Horsemen of Symphonic Prog!
Now, add the risk of opening the door for absolutely each and every band in the musical spectrum, from Motown to Madonna (Some people claim that songs as "Like a Prayer" are related to Prog, this would be chaotic That is beyond ridiculous! Though it's true, remember the Duran Duran thread...
Now add all the accurate points Maani and Peter made like the divisive factor, you will have 100 posts asking if A or B album is Prog of not and if the team has the bad luck to disagree with the opinion of the fans of determined band and/or album you would have a civil war on hands.
No, this would never work.
Iván
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46828
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Posted: July 09 2006 at 13:21 |
Ghost Rider wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
hahahah... since my high horse was shot last
night... I will stick to my pledge having recieved my answer and sit
down quietly and shut my big yapper ...however...before I do....
Micky, seems you have bad memory, you're
part of a team already and you know how much preasure can be placed on
us for just changing one band from Symphonic to Neo Prog or Art Rock.
We're not eliminating a band, we're not adding a band, we're just
changing a genre and still we got some serious debates in the
Collaborators and Prog Lounge Forums. True, though luckily not too often.
Pressure.. Ivan... pressure is litigating a
important case... presenting a seminar.... delivering a job your boss
has made clear that you are to do.... This site is
fun... I feel no pressure, and neither should anyone else.
Debates are healthy and natural..as long as conducted like adults.
Now multiply that for 10 if you as part of a team don't accept a
determined album, you will have a lot of preasure if you refuse to add
a hip hop or Disco album to that section.
Well
along with the perks of being a S.C or P.R. comes responsiblity... to
be able to explain your decisions... and if need be... stand up against
the 'masses'.
Now multiply that for 10 again if you add a Rolling Stones, Earth
Eind & Fire or Boston album, some people will start to make
problems, there are still members making a lot of noise because Kansas
is here. This is true, but I don't really
know whether we should let ourselves be influenced by what people
think. No one will always agree on everything. Obviously IMHO.
Again.. what I'm proposing is no different
than what we do... the decision would be made by the team... it
would be final... and the forum at large may not like it... they'll
bitch about it.... then life would go on... as it always has
here. The earth did not open up and shallow PA's when ELO was
included.. or the Beatles... hahahha
Then, you would need a team not only formed by specialist on one
but in every genre, I can't get the difference between RIO and Post
Rock or Death Prog Metal and Viking Prog Metal, so you would need at
least 10 members. I'm not sure about this...
those are small details... as we have proven... a small group can work... and a large one..would be even better....
Now add the time gap, you know we have to stay until 2 am and
Raffaella has to wake at 5 or 6 AM to discuss with us. How many members
are willing to do that? How true.., but I wouldn't miss it for anything in the world! I'm proud to be a member of the Three Horsemen of Symphonic Prog!
ahhh.... not to be flippant Ivan.... PM's
work just as well... what we do actually does not require us to meet...
we do because we enjoy each other's company..
Now, add the risk of opening the door for absolutely each and
every band in the musical spectrum, from Motown to Madonna (Some people
claim that songs as "Like a Prayer" are related to Prog, this would be
chaotic That is beyond ridiculous! Though it's true, remember the Duran Duran thread...
once again.... small details.... make the
inclusion process mandatory that all group members agree before
inclusion.. with the range of ages and tastes.. it serves the purpose
of including albums that SHOULD be here..
Now add all the accurate points Maani and Peter made like the
divisive factor, you will have 100 posts asking if A or B album is Prog
of not and if the team has the bad luck to disagree with the opinion of
the fans of determined band and/or album you would have a civil war on
hands.
No, this would never work.
Iván
hahah... and
I've shown that it can work and would work... it just involves
change... and that is something that some peope are resistant to..
having spole my piece on the matter.... I'll sit down and shut the hell up ahhahah  Besides... it's time for the game!
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: July 09 2006 at 19:56 |
micky wrote:
Pressure.. Ivan... pressure is litigating a important case... presenting a seminar.... delivering a job your boss has made clear that you are to do.... This site is fun... I feel no pressure, and neither should anyone else. Debates are healthy and natural..as long as conducted like adults.
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Well Micky I understand you can't remember this because you had some problems and not working with the group for a couple of weeks when this happened.
- A band was changed from Symphonic to Art Rock (You also voted in favour before leaving.
- We were criticized and even insulted outside the Collaborator's zone
- A Collaboratoir disagreed so much that started a poll in the open section of the Forum
- The insults and attacks run from one side to another.
- Our thread was closed and the Symphonic team almost disolved (With more than enough reasons for Tony)
- I had to personally PM all the members involved in the discussion just to avoid any further problem.
- This was used as an excuse by members who don't agree with Sub-Genres to attack all the structure.
- We had to start all over again and loose one week's work.
All this because ONE BAND not removed or added to/from Prog Archives, only changed from Symphonic to Art Rock
Well along with the perks of being a S.C or P.R. comes responsiblity... to be able to explain your decisions... and if need be... stand up against the 'masses'. |
I can't talk for everybody, but at least for me it's a lot of work that I do with pleasure (And I know you too), we sacrifice family and even work time what again I do happilly because I love PA and Prog.
| Again.. what I'm proposing is no different than what we do... the decision would be made by the team... it would be final... and the forum at large may not like it... they'll bitch about it.... then life would go on... as it always has here. The earth did not open up and shallow PA's when ELO was included.. or the Beatles... hahahha |
No, it diddn't opened, but The Beatles have some Prog elements in a couple of albums plus it was a special case and ELO was added by mistake against what all polls said. Imagine if the team by one or two votes adds a Rap, Hip Hop or a Disco album, that would create chaos.
The addition of Radiohead caused a big problem but probably you won't remember it because you weren't a member yet.
those are small details... as we have proven... a small group can work... and a large one..would be even better.... |
Small details? Micky we are currently three working, one member resigned even before the team was created, two weren't able to be a part, one is missing and one member only contributes with his wise advice when asked.
I had to choose a completely new team and despite this we are still currently three when we are 5 in reality.
ahhh.... not to be flippant Ivan.... PM's work just as well... what we do actually does not require us to meet... we do because we enjoy each other's company.. |
I consider this reunions useful maybe because we all enjoy our company is the reason why we're still working, but remember Raffaella wakes at 5 or 6 am to meet us and we have to stay until well after midnight.
once again.... small details.... make the inclusion process mandatory that all group members agree before inclusion.. with the range of ages and tastes.. it serves the purpose of including albums that SHOULD be here.. |
Then forget ityou will never make ten persons to agree about a non Prog band, you would be lucky if you get more than 50%.
hahah... and I've shown that it can work and would work... it just involves change... and that is something that some peope are resistant to..
having spole my piece on the matter.... I'll sit down and shut the hell up ahhahah Besides... it's time for the game!
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Everybody here agrees about change Micky, but not everybody will agree about the same changes.
It's fun have a debate with you, something I had forgotten since we work together in the Symphonic team....I missed them, sadly we agree most of the times with the changes that have to be made inside Symphonic sub-genre. 
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 09 2006 at 20:01
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Cheesecakemouse
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 1751
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Posted: July 09 2006 at 22:02 |
Look I'm not trying to cause more trouble than this website, I just wanted to see where people stand on such issues, with the issues such as Madonna; thats really extreme cases 99% would not agree with such a thing. What someone said earlier about me not appreciating how there'll be a problem what level of prog will an artist need to be included on this website, is a fair comment. There will always be problems no matter how things are categorised, the arts are almost impossible to categorise efficiently,there are always those falling between the cracks, and always a frustration that others are not included and why others are, its a system and like all human systems its flawed. My frustration is the exclusion of Miles Davis but I do appreciate the can of worms it'll open if he was included, no one will ever be 100% satisfied with this website, but as they say 'if it aint' broke don't fix it.' So of course it isn't perfect, and it will never be perfect, and so there'll always be debates in the forums, most liely till the end of time or the end of the internet. Oh well.
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46828
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Posted: July 09 2006 at 23:00 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
micky wrote:
Pressure..
Ivan... pressure is litigating a important case... presenting a
seminar.... delivering a job your boss has made clear that you are to
do.... This site is fun... I feel no pressure, and
neither should anyone else. Debates are healthy and natural..as
long as conducted like adults.
|
Well
Micky I understand you can't remember this because you had some
problems and not working with the group for a couple of weeks when this
happened.
- A band was changed from Symphonic to Art Rock (You also voted in favour before leaving.
- We were criticized and even insulted outside the Collaborator's zone
- A Collaboratoir disagreed so much that started a poll in the open section of the Forum
- The insults and attacks run from one side to another.
- Our thread was closed and the Symphonic team almost disolved (With more than enough reasons for Tony)
- I had to personally PM all the members involved in the discussion just to avoid any further problem.
- This was used as an excuse by members who don't agree with Sub-Genres to attack all the structure.
- We had to start all over again and loose one week's work.
All this because ONE BAND not removed or added to/from Prog Archives, only changed from Symphonic to Art Rock
Well
along with the perks of being a S.C or P.R. comes responsiblity... to
be able to explain your decisions... and if need be... stand up against
the 'masses'. |
I
can't talk for everybody, but at least for me it's a lot of work that I
do with pleasure (And I know you too), we sacrifice family and even
work time what again I do happilly because I love PA and Prog.
| Again..
what I'm proposing is no different than what we do... the
decision would be made by the team... it would be final... and the
forum at large may not like it... they'll bitch about it.... then life
would go on... as it always has here. The earth did not open up
and shallow PA's when ELO was included.. or the Beatles... hahahha |
No, it diddn't opened, but The Beatles have some Prog
elements in a couple of albums plus it was a special case and
ELO was added by mistake against what all polls said. Imagine if
the team by one or two votes adds a Rap, Hip Hop or a Disco
album, that would create chaos.
The addition of Radiohead caused a big problem but probably you won't remember it because you weren't a member yet.
those are small details... as we have proven... a small group can work... and a large one..would be even better.... |
Small
details? Micky we are currently three working, one member resigned even
before the team was created, two weren't able to be a part, one is
missing and one member only contributes with his wise advice when
asked.
I had to choose a completely new team and despite this we are still currently three when we are 5 in reality.
ahhh....
not to be flippant Ivan.... PM's work just as well... what we do
actually does not require us to meet... we do because we enjoy each
other's company.. |
I consider this
reunions useful maybe because we all enjoy our company is the reason
why we're still working, but remember Raffaella wakes at 5 or 6 am to
meet us and we have to stay until well after midnight.
once
again.... small details.... make the inclusion process mandatory that
all group members agree before inclusion.. with the range of ages and
tastes.. it serves the purpose of including albums that SHOULD be here.. |
Then forget ityou will never make ten persons to agree about a non Prog band, you would be lucky if you get more than 50%.
hahah...
and I've shown that it can work and would work... it just involves
change... and that is something that some peope are resistant to..
having spole my piece on the matter.... I'll sit down and shut the hell up ahhahah Besides... it's time for the game!
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Everybody here agrees about change Micky, but not everybody will agree about the same changes.
It's fun have a debate with you, something I had
forgotten since we work together in the Symphonic team....I missed
them, sadly we agree most of the times with the changes that have to be
made inside Symphonic sub-genre.
hahah.. no offense but as much as I miss debating
you.. what I miss most is the opportunity to break out the hot pink on
you. I did say I'd let this drop so I will. Tony told me
yesterday on a different matter to just trust the 'powers that
be' You've made your points... I've made mine. Though
I must say... I think I got you on this one hahaha
Iván |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Mandrakeroot
Forum Senior Member
Italian Prog Specialist
Joined: March 01 2006
Location: San Foca, Friűl
Status: Offline
Points: 5851
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Posted: July 10 2006 at 05:35 |
RycheMan wrote:
Great Idea!
Hopefully those early Rainbow albums would get some recognition. Some Bowie, BOC etc |
This is my opinion!!!
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S Lang
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 01 2005
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 441
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Posted: July 11 2006 at 06:15 |
There are obviously difficulties with finding a way to feature John McLaughlin, Jack Bruce, Miles Davis, etc. on the Archives. It can be argued forever, but considering that we are talking about legends ignored, it's just untenable.
There's got to be a way to do it.
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Phil
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 17 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1881
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Posted: July 11 2006 at 07:45 |
Excellent idea, cheesecakemouse, I do think albums like Bowies "Heroes" or "Low", Miles Davis' Bitches Brew, maybe some of The Flaming Lips, ought to be recognised as being "progressive" or having prog-like themes. Perhaps this is the way to do it. I certainly feel the wholesale inclusion of some artistes is not really appropriate.
BTW I didn't read all of what's gone before but...Madonna???!!!
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bhikkhu
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 06 2006
Location: A˛ Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 5109
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Posted: July 11 2006 at 07:56 |
Phil wrote:
Excellent idea, cheesecakemouse, I do think albums like Bowies "Heroes" or "Low", Miles Davis' Bitches Brew, maybe some of The Flaming Lips, ought to be recognised as being "progressive" or having prog-like themes. Perhaps this is the way to do it. I certainly feel the wholesale inclusion of some artistes is not really appropriate.
BTW I didn't read all of what's gone before but...Madonna???!!! |
Yes. Madonna can be submitted, along with any other candidate. Then she will be immediately rejected. 
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Rocktopus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 02 2006
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 4202
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Posted: July 11 2006 at 08:11 |
MANDRAKEROOT wrote:
[QUOTE=RycheMan]Great Idea!
Hopefully those early Rainbow albums would get some recognition. Some Bowie, BOC etc
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Also:
Pretty Things(SF Sorrow), The Who, Small Faces (Ogden Nut Flake), Miles
Davis, Herbie Hancock, Bee Gees: Odessa, Joni Mitchell, Rolling
Stones(At His Satanic Majesties Request), Black Sabbath, Iron Maiden,
Metallica, Tim Buckley mm..., have all made an album or two that has a
natural place here.
Still can't see any good reasons why they shouldn't. Who'll decide
what? That's a question than can be asked for every inlusion. Why is
this more relevant here?
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Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
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Peter
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 9669
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Posted: July 11 2006 at 10:37 |
MANDRAKEROOT wrote:
RycheMan wrote:
Great Idea!
Hopefully those early Rainbow albums would get some recognition. Some Bowie, BOC etc |
This is my opinion!!!
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Do you really think their presence here is going to "make or break" these artists?
Are you, I and all not still free to like/listen to them? 
Surely most people here (who have attained the age of reason) are familiar with Bowie? 
The arguing would be ENDLESS: "How could you only list Low, Heroes and Lodger? Have you even HEARD Outside? It is way more proggy than those! Why, I oughtta...." (blah blah blah de freakin' BLAH!) 
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Cheesecakemouse
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 1751
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Posted: July 11 2006 at 18:04 |
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I think that the Admin/Collabs concerns are legitimate, maybe we could try this on trial and if it fails then no need to worry, I guess it just depends if its worth all the trouble getting it up and running if its only for a short time?
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: July 11 2006 at 18:23 |
No Raindance, there's nothing on trial here, once a band or album has been added, there's no turning back, that's the policy of the site.
BTW: Look some posts above, there's one member asking for The Bee Gees already, no album by this POP/Disco icons gets even remotely close to Prog.
Already other members have requested on other threads since a couple of years:
1.- Chicago
2.- Boston
3.- Journey
4.- Mountain
5.- The Cure
6.- Talking Heads
7.- Meatloaf
8.- Vanessa Mae
9.- Elton John
10.- Earth Wind & Fire
We have to deal with this, it's somehow easy to ignore this incredible requests, but it would be almost impossible to deal with hundreeds if not a thousand albums that sooner or later will be requested.
Iván
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Cheesecakemouse
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 1751
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Posted: July 11 2006 at 18:28 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
No Raindance, there's nothing on trial here, once a band or album has been added, there's no turning back, that's the policy of the site.
BTW: Look some posts above, there's one member asking for The Bee Gees already, no album by this POP/Disco icons gets even remotely close to Prog.
Already other members have requested on other threads since a couple of years:
1.- Chicago
2.- Boston
3.- Journey
4.- Mountain
5.- The Cure
6.- Talking Heads
7.- Meatloaf
8.- Vanessa Mae
9.- Elton John
10.- Earth Wind & Fire
We have to deal with this, it's somehow easy to ignore this incredible requests, but it would be almost impossible to deal with hundreeds if not a thousand albums that sooner or later will be requested.
Iván |
Yeah theres no way the Cure or Talking Heads should be included, great bands but definately not prog, I'm saterting to the floodgates that will be opened, the system isn't perfect with no Miles Davis, but I'm starting to think that allowing him in will cause a lot of problems with other requests.
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WaywardSon
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 23 2006
Location: Brazil
Status: Offline
Points: 2537
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Posted: July 11 2006 at 18:42 |
Peter Rideout wrote:
MANDRAKEROOT wrote:
RycheMan wrote:
Great Idea!
Hopefully those early Rainbow albums would get some recognition. Some Bowie, BOC etc |
This is my opinion!!!
|
Do you really think their presence here is going to "make or break" these artists?
I´m not really following you here with "make or break" these artists? Many here would find these albums interesting to discuss, and judging from this poll it´s the majority.
Are you, I and all not still free to like/listen to them? Of course we are.
Surely most people here (who have attained the age of reason) are familiar with Bowie? Of course.
The arguing would be ENDLESS: "How could you only list Low, Heroes and Lodger? Have you even HEARD Outside? It is way more proggy than those! Why, I oughtta...." (blah blah blah de freakin' BLAH!) |
The arguing if some artists in specific genres deserve to be there in the first place happens everyday too
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Rocktopus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 02 2006
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 4202
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Posted: July 12 2006 at 04:47 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
BTW: Look some posts above, there's one member asking for The Bee Gees already, no album by this POP/Disco icons gets even remotely close to Prog.
Iván |
Odessa is a concept double album from '69, not too far from the sound
of Moody Blues, and equally progsounding. ELO's debut has nothing to do
with their later Discovery album, and you can' dismiss Genesis' Foxtrot
because of We Can't Dance. Same thing here. You obviously haven't heard
this album, but that kind of details rarely stops you from having
strong opinons.
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Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
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S Lang
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 01 2005
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 441
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Posted: July 12 2006 at 05:11 |
[QUOTE=Ivan_Melgar_M, once a band or album has been added, there's no turning back, that's the policy of the site.
Maybe it's time to change that attitude?
Already other members have requested on other threads since a couple of years:
1.- Chicago
2.- Boston
3.- Journey
4.Mountain - Yes, please!
5.- The Cure
6.- Talking Heads
7.- Meatloaf
8.- Vanessa Mae
9.- Elton John
10.- Earth Wind & Fire
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toolis
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 26 2006
Location: MacedoniaGreece
Status: Offline
Points: 1678
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Posted: August 22 2006 at 07:43 |
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if an artist's or a band's discography consists of e.g. 8 heavy metal albums and 1 heavy/progressive metal album, i don't think that it matters to me...
i am a huge Maiden fan myself but seeing 'Seventh Son' in the PA isn't exactly what i'm looking for...
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: August 22 2006 at 17:02 |
Rocktopus wrote:
Just found this reply on a thread I had forgotten long ago but ressurrected again today by a memeber, so lets go
Odessa is a concept double album from '69, not too far from the sound of Moody Blues, and equally progsounding.
Oh my God, Odessa was a good album (I heard all the Bee Gees until 1972 more or less) but Prog?????
The title track is as simple and boring ballad as Melody Fair and Lamplight; Give your Best is pure Bluegrass; First of May is a bland Pop ballad, there's not a single Prog moment, good is not synonymous of Prog.
The fact they used orchestra in the title song or Seven Seas Symphony (As well as others if I remember well because haven't heard this album in years) doesn't make the album Prog, it's simply POP music played with orchestra
ELO's debut has nothing to do with their later Discovery album, and you can' dismiss Genesis' Foxtrot because of We Can't Dance.
First, I repeated endlessly that I hate those arguments if A is here why not B?
We judge every band for their own merits not because we added band by mistake this opens the door to add other non Prog bands. If you step in dog's feces with one feet, you don't step in with the other to make it even, you take the dirty shoe and clean it.
I still believe (Despite Micky disagrees) that ELO was a mistake, IMO it's a Rock and then Disco band that used Orchestra and orchestral arrangements.
Genesis made 7 (SEVEN) albums that are in the top 100 of this or any Prog list in the world (At least 5 of them surely are), they were iconic, the whole Neo Prog started and developed following Genesis footsteps.
The Bee Gees made about 35 albums, all POP and some terribly repulsivedisco albums, they wereicons of the disco movement of the late 70's and also made Odessa, a good Pop album with some nice moments, please don't compare both bands.
Same thing here. You obviously haven't heard this album, but that kind of details rarely stops you from having strong opinons.
I never speak without having heard Rocktopus, I even have original LP's of Odessa, Horizontal, Cucumber Castle and even the Soundtrack of Melody as well (I bought Odessa and Melody, my sister bought the rest) My sister always liked Disco, she bought among others Staying Alive, Saturday Night Fever and Here at Last The Bee gees Live, so don't tell me I talk without listening.
I stay in my point, no Bee Gees album should ever be here because they weren't Prog, Prog Related neither remotely related with Prog.
Iván
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