Author |
Topic Search Topic Options
|
threefates
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 30 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4215
|
Posted: January 02 2005 at 19:45 |
dropForge wrote:
Cause I don't think later KC will appear to be any better to them than Yes or ELP... probably less since it more fusion... |
Are you saying fusion will turn somebody off more quickly than prog? Not necessarily. I know you don't really like (much) fusion, but some people may take to it more eagerly than twenty-five minute epics with lotsa noodley parts.
If they are going to have a problem with prog.. yes I think fusion would turn them off quicker than prog... and since when did the KC fusion come without noodling and in short pieces?? ![](smileys/smiley5.gif)
A better comparison would be Camel and Pink Floyd: Pete Bardens (and every other keyboard player after him) would mop the floor with Wright; the rhythm section was better, and Latimer's guitar playing is equal to Gilmour's. That leaves the area of lyrics/concepts, and Camel tackled different territory in that sense (I'm fine with it). Camel also did many more instrumentals, so that should say something.
Sorry, I like Camel... but Latimer in no way compared with Gilmour in technique or emotion. |
|
THIS IS ELP
|
![Back to Top Back to Top](forum_images/back_to_top.png) |
Rob The Good
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 17 2004
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 476
|
Posted: January 02 2005 at 19:49 |
Oooh I'm messed up. In fact I'm not sure what I want to say. I DO want to say that Yes are better than Pink Floyd yes they are. What I think I was trying to say was if you find someone who you may be able to convert to the Prog fold, playing them "Tales from the Topographic Oceans" may switch them off completely. But it depends on the person: my first real Prog album was "Close to the Edge", and I don't think I could've started at a better place. Wait a minute, I think I've contradicted myself again
|
And Jesus said unto John, "come forth and receive eternal life..." Unfortunately, John came fifth and was stuck with a toaster.
|
![Back to Top Back to Top](forum_images/back_to_top.png) |
Rob The Good
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 17 2004
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 476
|
Posted: January 02 2005 at 19:51 |
Actually, do you think ELP are a good place for Prog beginners to start? Because they have shorter ballads, AND longer pieces. Quite versatile people really.
|
And Jesus said unto John, "come forth and receive eternal life..." Unfortunately, John came fifth and was stuck with a toaster.
|
![Back to Top Back to Top](forum_images/back_to_top.png) |
yngwie_satriani
Forum Newbie
Joined: December 16 2004
Location: Philippines
Status: Offline
Points: 4
|
Posted: January 03 2005 at 00:55 |
i think yes is more classical or more progressive than pink floyd!
its because i like yes more than floyd-
|
Guitar destroyer
|
![Back to Top Back to Top](forum_images/back_to_top.png) |
Kashmir
Forum Groupie
Joined: December 18 2004
Location: Singapore
Status: Offline
Points: 59
|
Posted: January 03 2005 at 01:24 |
I prefer Pink Floyd ,and again i think if u said that "Yes is more progressive than Pink Floyd" ...i don't agree !!
|
![Back to Top Back to Top](forum_images/back_to_top.png) |
JrKASperov
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 07 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 904
|
Posted: January 03 2005 at 01:38 |
Simple, PF plays nothing more than a bit more complicated pop, except
for the psychadelic stuff on albums like meddle. Yes's compositions are
more complex, changing(and PF is a master of not changing their tunes
throughout the song, like in Dogs) , individually virtuous (can't say
I've listened to PF and said: 'wow, I can't play that!' while I've had
that many times with Yes), and sounding like a whole.
|
Epic.
|
![Back to Top Back to Top](forum_images/back_to_top.png) |
Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559
|
Posted: January 03 2005 at 10:04 |
You seem to be under the mistaken apprehension that only complex music can be prog.
To call Pink Floyd "pop" is utterly ludicrous, even if it does say "File under Popular" on the back of the original pressings of "Piper at the Gates of Dawn" and "Saucerful of Secrets".
For a start, PF sound nothing like Britney Spears - do they? ![](smileys/smiley5.gif)
I have never listened to Yes and thought "Wow, I can't play that". It's pretty simple really.
Edited by Certif1ed
|
![Back to Top Back to Top](forum_images/back_to_top.png) |
goose
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 20 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 4097
|
Posted: January 03 2005 at 10:11 |
Certif1ed wrote:
To call Pink Floyd "pop" is utterly ludicrous, even if it does say "File under Popular" on the back of the original pressings of "Piper at the Gates of Dawn" and "Saucerful of Secrets". |
Had to brag, didn't you!
|
![Back to Top Back to Top](forum_images/back_to_top.png) |
Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559
|
Posted: January 03 2005 at 15:40 |
![](smileys/smiley2.gif)
Not only that, but it says (in full):
File under Popular : Pop groups.
...but back then, anything that wasn't blues, jazz, folk or classical was pop. Which includes Yes.
Edited by Certif1ed
|
![Back to Top Back to Top](forum_images/back_to_top.png) |
dropForge
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 24 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 608
|
Posted: January 03 2005 at 20:11 |
If they are going to have a problem with prog.. yes I think fusion would turn them off quicker than prog... and since when did the KC fusion come without noodling and in short pieces?? |
What exactly do you mean? The only "noodling" in the KC camp happens when one of the ProjeKcts projects (hehe) is being indulged, which are basically improv forums. When I listen to Red, USA, Discipline, Beat, Three Of A Perfect Pair, Thrak, The Power To Believe, etc., I don't hear noodling, I hear sophistication.
Sorry, I like Camel... but Latimer in no way compared with Gilmour in technique or emotion. |
Have another listen, beyond the first Camel album, if possible! ![](smileys/smiley36.gif)
|
![Back to Top Back to Top](forum_images/back_to_top.png) |
dropForge
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 24 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 608
|
Posted: January 03 2005 at 20:13 |
You seem to be under the mistaken apprehension that only complex music can be prog. |
That's a different argument. Pink Floyd is basically a psych-rock group. The fact that PF recorded side-length pieces doesn't really change that. The proggiest they got was Wish You Were Here.
|
![Back to Top Back to Top](forum_images/back_to_top.png) |
Heman
Forum Newbie
Joined: January 03 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3
|
Posted: January 03 2005 at 21:51 |
Rob The Good wrote:
Well Yes have certainly received far more flak for
being Prog than Pink Floyd. Many evil anti-prog "beings" use "Tales
From the Topographic Oceans" as an example of how "self-indulgent and
pompous" Prog can be. The point about the time signatures is true too;
Pink Floyd are undoubtably the best band to introduce to new Prog fans,
but Yes represent, along with King Crimson, Genesis & ELP the very
core of Prog. I may also invite the wrath of many people by saying this
(and don't get me wrong, I LOVE Yes & Pink Floyd), but I believe
that the musicianship in Yes' compositions is tighter & more
accomplished, and Prog champions musical ability. Having said that,
Pink Floyd are fantastic! |
I totally agree!
|
![Back to Top Back to Top](forum_images/back_to_top.png) |
Garion81
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2004
Location: So Cal, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4338
|
Posted: January 03 2005 at 22:22 |
Certif1ed wrote:
You seem to be under the mistaken apprehension that only complex music can be prog.
To call Pink Floyd "pop" is utterly ludicrous, even if it does say "File under Popular" on the back of the original pressings of "Piper at the Gates of Dawn" and "Saucerful of Secrets".
For a start, PF sound nothing like Britney Spears - do they? ![](smileys/smiley5.gif)
I have never listened to Yes and thought "Wow, I can't play that". It's pretty simple really.
|
I agree with that and take it one step further is to say they are just Rock is not true either. I am not a huge fan of either Yes or Pink Floyd but they are both prog bands hands down.
|
"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?"
|
![Back to Top Back to Top](forum_images/back_to_top.png) |
tuxon
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 21 2004
Location: plugged-in
Status: Offline
Points: 5502
|
Posted: January 03 2005 at 22:41 |
Certif1ed wrote:
tuxon wrote:
Pink floyd s*ck
boring overextended pieces, bad drumming, bad bass-playing, uninteresting keyboards. Only Syd, the guitar and the lyrics are good.
|
As opposed to Yes's boring overextended pieces with bad lyrics and squeaky voices you mean?
/aside:
I like Floyd's bass and drums, so "bad" is a bit subjective, don't you think? The bass lines to "One of These Days" and "Money" stand out as being particularly good. I also find the keyboards anything but uninteresting.
|
I should have added "IMHO". The problem with hating Floyd music is "You can't hate it all" there is some good music born from their loins. The guitar usualy is good and for each member there are moments they shine, but bottomline, They tend to get a little bit Ffing boring. (IMO)
Whereas Yes had their moments of weakness (as opposite of moments of strenght) but overall made great music, with each instrument in place.
But In the end you can't compare carrot's with cuccumbers. One is orange and the other is yellow or green. I prefer Yes for their music, not because they are more orange than a cucumber.
|
I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT
|
![Back to Top Back to Top](forum_images/back_to_top.png) |
Vegetableman
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 27 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 242
|
Posted: January 03 2005 at 22:42 |
I would say that Pink Floyd is the victor here, probably because they are indeed my utmost favorite band. But, as it was mentioned, since its hard to compare such different bands, my criteria is based on how many great albums they produced. For Floyd: Piper At The Gates of Dawn, Meddle, Dark Side of the Moon, Wish You Were Here, Animals, The Wall, The Division Bell. For Yes: The Yes Album, Fragile, Close to the Edge, Tales from Topographic Oceans, Relayer, Going for the One. Tales and Going for the One are very loosely great, but it will make up for Piper being counted. Floyd wins either way, 7 to 6 or 6 to 4.
While Rick Wright may not have been the most talented keyboardist out there, he does he what he was asked to do. Dave was the centerpiece in Floyd's work, Rick wasn't expected to make a big permofance. (Hes definately capable of interesting works, EG: Love Scene 4, Great Gig in the Sky, Sysyphus Pt. 2, Summer 68, both his solo projects, etc.) Plus, He adds such great atmosphere to Floyd, perhaps the biggest contributor to the "Floyd" sound. (Just look at the difference between The Final Cut and The Wall... he wasn't given a lot of elbow space on the Wall, and look at the difference! ...and look at the difference between Momentary Lapse of Reason and The Division Bell also) And BTW, Shine On You Crazy Diamond Part 9 has always been my favorite keyboard solo ever, anyway you cut it.
Also, IMO, David Gilmour is hands down the greatest guitarist in prog.
Edited by Vegetableman
|
"Mister Fripp, your music is quite different than everything else out there. In one word, how would you describe it?" "Progressive.... yeah, that's it..."
|
![Back to Top Back to Top](forum_images/back_to_top.png) |
dropForge
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 24 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 608
|
Posted: January 03 2005 at 23:23 |
For Floyd: Piper At The Gates of Dawn, Meddle, Dark Side of the Moon, Wish You Were Here, Animals, The Wall, The Division Bell. For Yes: The Yes Album, Fragile, Close to the Edge, Tales from Topographic Oceans, Relayer, Going for the One. Tales and Going for the One are very loosely great, but it will make up for Piper being counted. Floyd wins either way, 7 to 6 or 6 to 4. |
Let's look at this properly. You forgot about this little gem in 1980 called Drama. No Wakeman or Anderson, yes, but a spectacular album, Yes at their most rockin'! Let's say we bypass the Trevor era (even though I did pick up the 90125 remaster): we have two -- TWO -- CD's worth of fine studio material from the Keys To Ascension sessions, with the classic lineup. Many Yes fans also regard The Ladder and Magnification as very good albums, even if I myself prefer the albums before. Rick Wakeman says they have "one more album" in them, so let's hope they do it. Now, if my math is correct... ![](smileys/smiley1.gif)
|
![Back to Top Back to Top](forum_images/back_to_top.png) |
Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559
|
Posted: January 04 2005 at 02:45 |
dropForge wrote:
You seem to be under the mistaken apprehension that only complex music can be prog. |
That's a different argument. Pink Floyd is basically a psych-rock group. The fact that PF recorded side-length pieces doesn't really change that. The proggiest they got was Wish You Were Here.
|
No it isn't.
The respondent said "Simple, PF plays nothing more than a bit more complicated pop, except for the psychadelic stuff on albums like meddle. Yes's compositions are more complex, changing(and PF is a master of not changing their tunes throughout the song, like in Dogs) , individually virtuous (can't say I've listened to PF and said: 'wow, I can't play that!' while I've had that many times with Yes), and sounding like a whole."
Clearly this response is trying to claim that prog=complex music, ergo Pink Floyd are not prog - an assumption which is codswallop at best.
Even your claim that PF are basically a psych-rock group is erroneous, and your generalisms do not back your argument up.
Consider "Piper at the Gates of Dawn".
You hear a psychedelic album, end of story.
I hear an album which ranges through many different styles - you cannot tell from the first 5 minutes what the rest of the album will sound like (my favourite yardstick for measuring progginess). There is a unity in terms of the sounds and the ways in which thematic material is set up, then broken down or electronically enhanced in the various songs.
There may be simple song structures in some pieces - but the boundaries are pushed hard. In others, you may easily observe a psychedelic jam - but what makes these pieces stand out as prog compared to other "pure" psychedelic bands is that the jams are structured. Don't get confused and start thinking that I mean the improvisations are structured or that I'm implying that Syd was some kind or natural structuralist; that's not true.
Piper is, for me, the ultimate proto-prog album - if not the very first full-blown prog album.
Every album from Ummagumma to The Wall progresses naturally throughout, giving an improvised feel - another measure of a true prog album.
|
![Back to Top Back to Top](forum_images/back_to_top.png) |
dropForge
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 24 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 608
|
Posted: January 04 2005 at 03:10 |
My claim that PF is "basically" a psych-rock band is not erroneous when you consider the alternate meanings of basically: at heart, in essence, firstly, primarily. I don't think they really shook this off of their collective pant legs until The Wall, but that's also a much more commercial-sounding effort than PATGOD or Meddle.
JrKASperov wasn't bashing Floyd so much as pointing out the differences in the sonic makeups of each band.
I hear an album which ranges through many different styles - you cannot tell from the first 5 minutes what the rest of the album will sound like (my favourite yardstick for measuring progginess). |
I recognize what you're saying as coming from somebody who's obviously a major PF fan, and I respect that. I just don't hear anything as eclectic as what you hear.
Piper is, for me, the ultimate proto-prog album - if not the very first full-blown prog album. |
Absolutely...not. In The Court Of The Crimson King, not anything by The Moody Blues, Pink Floyd, The Nice, etc.
Every album from Ummagumma to The Wall progresses naturally throughout, giving an improvised feel - another measure of a true prog album. |
IMO, The Wall doesn't have an improv'd feel, but premeditated. Pre-Wall, certainly. That was characteristic of PF, the ebb & flow, etc. Every note by Yes may sound calculated, but no less of a prog band are they for it. ELP succeeds both ways. So does King Crimson.
|
![Back to Top Back to Top](forum_images/back_to_top.png) |
Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559
|
Posted: January 04 2005 at 06:51 |
dropForge wrote:
My claim that PF is "basically" a psych-rock band is not erroneous when you consider the alternate meanings of basically: at heart, in essence, firstly, primarily. I don't think they really shook this off of their collective pant legs until The Wall, but that's also a much more commercial-sounding effort than PATGOD or Meddle.
Actually PF started as a blues band - but the label psychedelic was imposed on them, and they were so much more! I am saying that to consider them in the same collective as Jefferson Airplane, Grateful Dead, Love, Iron Butterfly or almost any other psychedelic band is a mistake, as their music went way beyond that. Progressed, I think is the word.
Any improvs happened within a tight structure - e.g. Saucerful of Secrets" is plainly in 3 parts, the order of which never varies in any of the live performances I have ever heard. PF were masters at making it sound like a complete psychedelic jam when in fact it wasn't.
Easy mistake to make!
JrKASperov wasn't bashing Floyd so much as pointing out the differences in the sonic makeups of each band.
He/she was claiming that their music was simple pop and was only psychedelic on "Meddle". I was only disagreeing with what is obviously balderdash, and I see no counter arguement!
I hear an album which ranges through many different styles - you cannot tell from the first 5 minutes what the rest of the album will sound like (my favourite yardstick for measuring progginess). |
I recognize what you're saying as coming from somebody who's obviously a major PF fan, and I respect that. I just don't hear anything as eclectic as what you hear.
I like Pink Floyd a great deal, but that is not where I am coming from at all - the eclecticness is there, and you've just admitted you don't hear it.
Piper is, for me, the ultimate proto-prog album - if not the very first full-blown prog album. |
Absolutely...not. In The Court Of The Crimson King, not anything by The Moody Blues, Pink Floyd, The Nice, etc.
Why? Because concensus says so?
Every album from Ummagumma to The Wall progresses naturally throughout, giving an improvised feel - another measure of a true prog album. |
IMO, The Wall doesn't have an improv'd feel, but premeditated. Pre-Wall, certainly. That was characteristic of PF, the ebb & flow, etc. Every note by Yes may sound calculated, but no less of a prog band are they for it. ELP succeeds both ways. So does King Crimson.
There is a natural flow to The Wall, although much of the improvised feel is lost in that album. However, there is no doubt in any but the more extreme that it is a prog album as it progresses throughout, develops thematic material and maintains an overall concept. In this alone, a degree of improvisationalism is maintained.
I do not agree that ELP succeed both ways! They fall squarely into the pre-meditated camp, although with less practice than Yes. The improvs are generally noodly bombastic blusters at best which fit inside a pre-meditated framework. |
Edited by Certif1ed
|
![Back to Top Back to Top](forum_images/back_to_top.png) |
sigod
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 17 2004
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 2779
|
Posted: January 04 2005 at 06:57 |
I believe that butter is better than margarine. ![](smileys/smiley4.gif)
|
I must remind the right honourable gentleman that a monologue is not a decision. - Clement Atlee, on Winston Churchill
|
![Back to Top Back to Top](forum_images/back_to_top.png) |