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Topic ClosedFripp's rules for Bill Bruford, 1981

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jmcdaniel_ee View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2007 at 15:01
2. His parts have lots of fills and major changes of textures;
3. His fills are dramatic; i.e., they shock.
These were my favorite aspects of Bill's drumming both w/Yes and 70's Crimson.  ESPECIALLY the major changes in textures.  To me, he never took a basic approach to anything.  Take the hits on Yes's "And You And I" during the heavily-reverbed mellotron part--not just cymbal crashes on every note.  I guess Fripp was wanting something drastically different and mechanical--a web of intertwined sound.  It was a specific re-direction that Fripp wanted to go in.  I also think this was a philosophical change in 80's music vs 70's--not just within the Crimson camp.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2007 at 16:15
       
    "Villiam vee have vays of making you a better King Crimson Drummer"

Well at least Bob addressed the situation and look at all  the great stuff Crimson produced with Bruford. I have read some not so nice comments as well as some positive ones Bruford has made regarding his days with Crimson. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2007 at 18:18
Originally posted by pero pero wrote:

Originally posted by Topographic Topographic wrote:

Originally posted by pero pero wrote:

The man is sick. No wonder that he spent time in monastery.


Wrong Crimso percussionist.  You're thinking of Jamie Muir, the second percussionist on Larks' Tongues in Aspic . . . etc.

-Topographic
 
When I said monastery I meant of his ten month course in Sherborne. He wrote about his experience:
 


D'oh!Pinch  Sorry, I had LTIA on the brain.  I actually hadn't heard about Fripp's monastery stay--forgive me for totally n00bing out there.  Interesting, though, that there's two members of Crimso who had stays in monasteries.  Wink

As far as the actual rules that Fripp had, I do think Vibrationbaby brings up a very good point here.  With the 80's era of Crimso, I remember reading that Fripp's main concept was to create a sort of "rock gamelan" with interlocking rhythms.  Being mechanical would probably be very conducive to that.  Of course, seeing this, it's amazing to me that the two managed to co-exist in the same band for so many years.  From what I can tell, it seems that Bruford in general got along a lot better with Fripp than he did for Jon Anderson (who he had a couple of interesting "nicknames" for, if I remember right).  So in that regard, if Fripp can come up with these rules and still make good with Bruford, I would indeed say he is the man.  Bruford is too, of course.Wink

And laplace--Rule 16 really cracked me up.  Clap

-Topographic


Edited by Topographic - April 25 2007 at 18:20
Have you rearranged your liver to the solid mental grace today?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 26 2007 at 00:19
Can any extreme-fan of KIng Crimson (like I am) make a list of the songs or moments of songs that show in some way that Bill is doing his homework?
 
Something like: Number of the rule / song or excerpt that shows that rule applied (or not)
 
IŽll do it soon, I need some time. Meanwhile... do it for yourself !!!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 26 2007 at 01:41
Does Discipline itself count as a "rule"? Thumbs%20Up
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 26 2007 at 02:30


And what's so great about Fripp's guitar playing?  I'm no guitar player, but I don't hear anything that great.  The solo on 21st Century Schizoid Man sounds truly dreadful and not very difficult to me.
[/QUOTE]
 
Sasquamo, dont make statements which could connect you with your avatar Confused
 
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Edited by pero - April 26 2007 at 05:04
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 26 2007 at 04:10
Amazing, Fripp is a unique character LOL
 
Well, who knows that it might have been helpful after all. And yes, all band leaders can sometimes be a bit... not easy to work with. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 26 2007 at 11:38
I'm pretty sure that those rules are a joke of some sort, fripp seems like a sophisticated guy, his sense of humour is probably right up that alley.

If it's not a joke then fripp's a douche, even if those things may be true that is not the right way to put it to someone, that's just asking for conflict.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 26 2007 at 12:34
Originally posted by moebius moebius wrote:

Can any extreme-fan of KIng Crimson (like I am) make a list of the songs or moments of songs that show in some way that Bill is doing his homework?
 
Something like: Number of the rule / song or excerpt that shows that rule applied (or not)
 
IŽll do it soon, I need some time. Meanwhile... do it for yourself !!!
 
10. If the part you're playing is boring, stop listening with your head;
11. If this still bores you, listen to the interaction between all the parts;
12. If this still bores you, stop playing and wait until you are no longer bored;

Bill can clearly be heard playing throughout "Man With An Open Heart."  He obviously forgot rule 12.  Good thing Fripp didn't apply this rule to the other bandmembers or they may have instead opted to include a cover of John Cage's 4'33".Big%20smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 26 2007 at 13:06
I am no musician, so I can only sort of speak to the group dynamics aspect of these Frippian rules.  I have heard many bands speak of this idea of the music playing the band.  The Grateful Dead used that metaphor all the time when talking about the sort of spontaneous organic jams that evolved.  It is the same in life.  There is will (the enrgy we put into the things we want) and spirit (the willingness to accept where we end up by letting go of control).  Lets say that other members of the band are already involved in a solo and somehow brufords fills mask what the other member is doing, at that point you have one of the children yelling too loud in the midst of the others story...pay attention to me not him!  If this is what is happening, then there is a need to form rules of the sort Fripp offered.  I am not sure of any examples, and it could be that the nuances are so subtle that only someone with Fripps trained ear could notice it.  The band is ultimately bigger than the individuals especially with regards to Crimson.  It could take some training to learn how to handle being with a group where everyone wants their chance to tell their piece of the story.  And then if you have worked with other bands, there may be an almost mechanized motion that was perfectly appropriate in a band that was less likely to take cues from one another, but in this setting fails to connect.  It is a good life lesson, if we can learn it.  Look for the place that your voice fits and then insert your ideas.  We have all been in discussion groups in which someone is speaking and the other guy starts talking over the top of what you are saying.  It may be to emphasize something you do, but it takes your focus away, and disjoits your narrative.  So we kind of need Roberts Rules of Order to run a collective group such as Crimson.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 26 2007 at 13:38
Originally posted by Atomic_Rooster Atomic_Rooster wrote:

Originally posted by Man Overboard Man Overboard wrote:

Heaven forbid a guy have an -aim-.


exactly!

No, not really, but I guess a good analogy might be:  KC was Fripp's child, and Bruford was taking it out back to the shed to roll some reefers, which I'm not saying is a bad thing per se, just not anything a parent would desire for their children.

Nahh, if Bruford didn't agree with Fripp, I'm sure he would have left, or wouldn't have come back later, plus he plenty of time to express himself fully on his solo albums, where his aims wouldn't distract from a cohesive jam.

Dead I probably sound like a Fripp fanboy now
I first thought he was really as asss, so cruel, but after reading your comment fripp's suggestion made a lot sense to bill. good info!!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 26 2007 at 15:14
I'm no musician, a king crimson fan for many years and beat is the almost only studio albums I do not have (yet. I'm working on it).
The only thing I want to say is that you should judge a genious (and Fripp is one for sure) according to the results. I do not concider Discipline or Three of a perfect pair as their best works (most 70's output and Thrak and The power to believe are better IMO) but still many excellent tracks such as indiscipline, the sheltering sky, LTIA III and more so I would say he knew what he was doing.
I can not tell how great is his guitar playing but some of it sounds like nothing else and make me feel all sort of feelings such as caos and terror (in Red), desperation after the battle (in The battle of glass tears) so, it is very unique and I'm sure indicates the quality of playing.
I would probably fail to work with him but that is one reason why I never played with him (apart from not knowing to play, too young, live in the wrong country and many other reasons).
omri
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 26 2007 at 15:22
Originally posted by FruMp FruMp wrote:

I'm pretty sure that those rules are a joke of some sort, fripp seems like a sophisticated guy, his sense of humour is probably right up that alley.

If it's not a joke then fripp's a douche, even if those things may be true that is not the right way to put it to someone, that's just asking for conflict.
I agree. Anyone out there ever read Fripp`s diary. Some pretty dry humour in there. And remember: whenever music comes along that only King Crimson can play, King Crimson plays it.Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2007 at 02:51
If he's serious I personally don't see the problem with it. If you had the best drummer in the world in your band, and you wanted him to play something simple, would you kick him out and bring in a Nick Mason type?

If he did so he wouldn't be able to utilise Bruford's "dramatic" style when the need arrived.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2007 at 05:01
Originally posted by Dick Heath Dick Heath wrote:

And there was me thinking from many a favourite jazz rock drummer, Bruford was one of the  most economic.........even less is much more???????????????
"Economic" or inspired, the work Bruford did with Moraz in the mid-1980s (definitely jazz) is phenomenal.  The man is a talented jazz drummer...
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