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crimson87 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 03 2008
Location: Argentina
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Points: 1818
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 Posted: October 28 2009 at 15:08 |
It's somewhat racist , so I use Kosmische Musik instead
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splyu
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 06 2008
Location: Germany
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Points: 316
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Posted: October 28 2009 at 17:39 |
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Never felt offended by it, in fact the thought never even crossed my mind. Then again, we in Germany grow up being taught that racism against us is OK. At least that's the way it used to be.
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Seyo
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Posted: October 29 2009 at 08:16 |
I think most of true musical artists that we love and listen and discuss about on this site had detested and still do all kinds of labels, genres, boxes or packages that many people would like to put their music into.
The very PROGRESSIVE term included, and all of its supposed "sub-genres" or "sub-styles" that appear here at PA. Let's face it - it is our (fans, writers, critics..) fixation to label everything we might think should be proper.
That said, if "Krautrock" seemed to have been offensive back then in England where the term was coined in early 1970s (but I never heard any complaint from German groups based on "racism" argument), then it has nothing to do with Germans as such but with the style of music of certain bands. Apart from that, I don't like political "correctness" of today and I think a healthy dose of humor including a little bashing or degrading of any collective "identity" should be welcome sometimes. This comes from a person who adores the satires of Monty Python or Little Britain, but I admit it may be culturally offensive to some. For me, go with it!  |
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omri
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Joined: April 21 2005
Location: Israel
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Points: 1250
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Posted: October 29 2009 at 10:05 |
Yes. It is anti German (not racist cause the Germans aren't a race).
More than that I find that what I happen to know from this sub-genre is divided to 2 different styles. One is what I call meditative music like Yahta sydra or Popol vuh's Hoisana mantra and the other is hard experimental dysonant music like Can, Faust and Amon duul II which I find smehow close to VDGG for example.
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omri
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Vibrationbaby
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 13 2004
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Points: 6898
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Posted: October 29 2009 at 10:34 |
 Seyo wrote:
I think most of true musical artists that we love and listen and discuss about on this site had detested and still do all kinds of labels, genres, boxes or packages that many people would like to put their music into.
The very PROGRESSIVE term included, and all of its supposed "sub-genres" or "sub-styles" that appear here at PA. Let's face it - it is our (fans, writers, critics..) fixation to label everything we might think should be proper.
That said, if "Krautrock" seemed to have been offensive back then in England where the term was coined in early 1970s (but I never heard any complaint from German groups based on "racism" argument), then it has nothing to do with Germans as such but with the style of music of certain bands. Apart from that, I don't like political "correctness" of today and I think a healthy dose of humor including a little bashing or degrading of any collective "identity" should be welcome sometimes. This comes from a person who adores the satires of Monty Python or Little Britain, but I admit it may be culturally offensive to some. For me, go with it! |
As I said at the beginning of the thread Mani Nuemeier detests the term. I just remembered that I mentioned that fact in the first paragraph of the bio I wrote for Guru Guru for PA a couple of years ago. Nuemeier refered to the style, at least Guru Guru`s style, as Acid Space Rock. Which I guess could in a way could translate to Kosmische Musik. When I think about it now Krautrock sounds kind of silly actually. Python forever!
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
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Posted: October 29 2009 at 11:21 |
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^ apparently (ie "I can't be bothered to check") Edgar Froese coined the phrase "Kosmische Musik" for one of the early TD albums - probably Alpha Centauri
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What?
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DJPuffyLemon
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 18 2008
Location: L
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Points: 520
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Posted: October 29 2009 at 12:51 |
Padraic wrote:
Last time I checked, Germans were not a race.
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they are as much a race as being white and black is a race
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Seyo
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Joined: May 08 2004
Location: Bosnia
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Posted: October 29 2009 at 16:45 |
emdiar wrote:
infandous wrote:
No genre names have any descriptive qualities without context. If you've never heard of, or heard any "metal" than the name has no musical meaning. Same with "rock" for that matter. When I see Krautrock or RPI listed for a band, I have a pretty general idea of how it's going to sound. That would not have been true when I was 15 and had never heard those terms or the music they represent. My parents would have had no musical context for "metal" or "rock" when they were growing up in the 40's, so they would not have been descriptive to them.
Genres are simply a way for humans to classify music as they do with just about everything else they encounter. But it's all still down to taste and sound.
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 Exactly what I was thinking. In fact, not only "no genre names" but "no words at all" with the possible exception of some onomatopoeia. Try listening to a foreign language you don't happen to speak........... and while we're on the subject of words and their meanings ( Padraic  ), many words take on a new and not always entirely logical or literal meaning by consensus. Take "racism". Sure, the Germans do not constitute a race in the strictest sense or at least in any clearly definable way (although social anthropologists recognise "the Germanic People" as being those descended from certain northern European tribes,) However, "racism" is a word which in common usage means discrimination on the basis of nationality, rather than exclusively of ethnicity.
If one really wants to be pedantic, take the word "homophobia", as used in my opening post. Surely it must mean "a fear of things that are the same"? Yet common usage has hijacked the Greek and given it an entirely different slant.
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I agree, guys... and even the so called "race" is an invented concept in the 19th century natural sciences... today many anthropologist will refuse it or downplay it as just a cultural construct.
And what about "progressive"? If I am a "conservative" or "traditionalist" or right-wingy of a sort, I may find the term " progressive rock" very offensive.... ha ha in fact, I AM very regressive... I prefer old music than new... 
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Seyo
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Posted: October 29 2009 at 16:47 |
Ah, I forgot, damn... did anyone heard about the certain "poststructuralist theories" ? Words have no real meanings out of context.... 
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ExittheLemming
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Joined: October 19 2007
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Posted: October 30 2009 at 08:11 |
Seyo wrote:
Ah, I forgot, damn... did anyone heard about the certain "poststructuralist theories" ? Words have no real meanings out of context.... |
Post 'closing time' theory - Just beacause the relationship between words and what they denote is an arbitrary one does not preclude us from flogging the riders of dead horses.
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Dean
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Posted: October 30 2009 at 08:21 |
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What?
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clarke2001
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Posted: October 30 2009 at 18:27 |
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No. Is spaghetti western a racist term?
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...dAVE!!!
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Posted: November 02 2009 at 19:45 |
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I suppose that that depends entirely on whether or not you are an overly sensitive person of Teutonic heritage or not,....wouldn't it?!? :-\
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...dAVE!!!
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Tuzvihar
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Posted: November 03 2009 at 06:03 |
Dean wrote:
^ apparently (ie "I can't be bothered to check") Edgar Froese coined the phrase "Kosmische Musik" for one of the early TD albums - probably Alpha Centauri |
I read in the booklet for Klaus Schulze's Cyborg that after the release of this album the press christened it as "cosmic music" and he still hates the term. BTW, how come noone ever mentions in such discussions that 'kraut" means "weed" in German? The name makes much more sense when you take this into consideration, doesn't it? 
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"Music is much like f**king, but some composers can't climax and others climax too often, leaving themselves and the listener jaded and spent."
Charles Bukowski
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Vibrationbaby
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 13 2004
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Points: 6898
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Posted: November 04 2009 at 09:45 |
clarke2001 wrote:
No. Is spaghetti western a racist term?
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Is Newfie a racist term ? I`ve met lots of them and they take it with a grain of salt. But they didn`t do anything "bad" in the past. I think all the bruhaha regarding the term " Krautrock " is that the second war is still fresh in our memories. I have a grumpy old uncle who fought in the war who still refers to Germans as The Boche all the time. Give it another hundred years and everything will be peachy.
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moshkito
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Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
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Points: 16610
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Posted: December 24 2009 at 17:24 |
emdiar wrote:
Probably been asked before, but I wonder what our German friends (Bald Girls?) think.
Personally, I believe it was once, back in the '70s, when racism/sexism/homophobia were still considered valid forms of humour, but I like to think our Tutonic proggers have reclaimed it in the same way that NWA reclaimed the "n" word, and "Three Puffs and a Piano" rejoice in their campness.
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I'm not sure where the term came from ... will have to ask Peter Michael Hamel about that ... but it was a generalized term that fit a lot more than rock music, specially when some of the music itself borrowed heavily from other arts to do something ... and create new feelings and musics.
In many ways, I like the term. In others I don't. It's sort of like ... something like ... one that would post here that that likes metal and Rush, will never give Krautrock an ear full and ... find out more about music than just one thing, or one style ... specially when the "krautrock" term spans over many disciplines, not just "rock music" ... it's hard not to think that Tangerine Dream and Klaus Schulze and Between and Popol Vuh and Ash Ra Tempel ... are not a part of "krautrock" ... they might not be musically, but they are ... massively so ... in attitude ... and this is where the difference lies ... it's maybe mish-mash electronics, but the underlying vision that brought it about for Klaus is the same ... and he's still doing it ... see?
As long as the term is meant in a caring and loving fashion, I don't think it's a problem ... but the moment it gets associated with something really bad ... it will be over ...
Edgar Froese has laughed about the term ... as have others ... but what the term insinuates is the one thing that a lot of "prog" folks can not handle ... and to boot, the record of creativity has stood up massively by its quantity over time ... there is a lot of improvisation in it ... and the western world music ... is afraid of improvisations and experiments! ... the media ... and boards like this don't know how to define or explain it ... and often can not accept ... the human spirit will NOT be cornered ... and that is what kraurock was about ... not some stupidlyric in an odd time with some organ and screeching guitar!
So .. as far as me ... krautrock forever! ... I really get tired of the over-importance and significance that gets put into some folks ... that is not there ... and the best example of them all is Robert Fripp and King Crimson! The stuff of his that matters most is the stuff most here don't enjoy!
Edited by moshkito - December 24 2009 at 17:33
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 16610
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Posted: December 24 2009 at 17:36 |
clarke2001 wrote:
No. Is spaghetti western a racist term? |
I say yeah ... when they dub what's his name ... (gawd ... can't even think of his name!)
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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Basíleia
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 22 2009
Location: The Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 283
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Posted: January 04 2010 at 05:53 |
emdiar wrote:
infandous wrote:
No genre names have any descriptive qualities without context. If you've never heard of, or heard any "metal" than the name has no musical meaning. Same with "rock" for that matter. When I see Krautrock or RPI listed for a band, I have a pretty general idea of how it's going to sound. That would not have been true when I was 15 and had never heard those terms or the music they represent. My parents would have had no musical context for "metal" or "rock" when they were growing up in the 40's, so they would not have been descriptive to them.
Genres are simply a way for humans to classify music as they do with just about everything else they encounter. But it's all still down to taste and sound.
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Exactly what I was thinking. In fact, not only "no genre names" but "no words at all" with the possible exception of some onomatopoeia. Try listening to a foreign language you don't happen to speak........... and while we're on the subject of words and their meanings ( Padraic ), many words take on a new and not always entirely logical or literal meaning by consensus. Take "racism". Sure, the Germans do not constitute a race in the strictest sense or at least in any clearly definable way (although social anthropologists recognise "the Germanic People" as being those descended from certain northern European tribes,) However, "racism" is a word which in common usage means discrimination on the basis of nationality, rather than exclusively of ethnicity.
If one really wants to be pedantic, take the word "homophobia", as used in my opening post. Surely it must mean "a fear of things that are the same"? Yet common usage has hijacked the Greek and given it an entirely different slant.
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To both
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 3281
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Posted: January 06 2010 at 02:16 |
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I don't think Krautrock is intended to be racist, but it's still not cool. If French music was called Frogrock or Chinese music was Wok And Roll or Japanese was Ploglessive Lock etc etc, people would get upset and find it childish. Krautrock only gets away with it because it was coined at a time when people didn't care and we've used the term for so long already. But even without the racist connotation, Krautrock should be rechristened anyway because like Progressivo De Rocko De Italianos Mario, it only links the music to a particular geographic scene and fails to function as a descriptor of what the music actually is.
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Is "Krautrock" a racist term?
