thehallway wrote: Logan wrote: thehallway wrote: rdtprog wrote: thehallway wrote: It's 2011. Do people still need to have the objective/subjective argument? Everybody knows that music is only ever going to be personal opinion. Why do we need so many threads to come to this conclusion? So you fall again in the obejecte/subjective argument... Music is personal opinion?  I wouldn't define it that way. --------------------------------  One's taste is subjective, but one can objectively analyse qualities of music within a framework.  You're wrong. Objective analysis would be "This song has a guitar in it". That's not an opinion.

I'm wrong? One cannot objectively analyse the qualities (i.e. properties) of music within a framework?  Sorry, but I don't understand your argument against my statement.


Edited by Logan - July 20 2011 at 10:36

thehallway wrote: Logan wrote: thehallway wrote: Logan wrote: thehallway wrote: rdtprog wrote: thehallway wrote: It's 2011. Do people still need to have the objective/subjective argument? Everybody knows that music is only ever going to be personal opinion. Why do we need so many threads to come to this conclusion? So you fall again in the obejecte/subjective argument... Music is personal opinion?  I wouldn't define it that way. --------------------------------  One's taste is subjective, but one can objectively analyse qualities of music within a framework.  You're wrong. Objective analysis would be "This song has a guitar in it". That's not an opinion. I'm wrong? One cannot objectively analyse the qualities (i.e. properties) of music within a framework?  Sorry, but I don't understand your argument against my statement. You can name them, that's it. Analysis requires some kind of opinion I'm sure.

One can use analysis (say qualitative analysis) to determine the elements which does not require the analyser's opinion (though one might say that opinion helped to form the gfrawewok, guidelines. standards/ procedure).  For instance, one might be given a vial of some substance to analyse to determine composition, is the result based on the scientist's opinion?

With music one might use analysis of the sounds to determine which instruments are being used, how much opinion is required to do so?  One might apply a given framework of analysis that was developed by others, and opinion may well have played an important part in developing the framework, but the one using it need not apply their own opinions to the procedure.

Also, I'd say that the quality of a performance can be judged without the judger resorting to personal opinion.  For instance, two pianists are asked to play Ligeti's Devil's Staircase as an entrance exam to a music school.  The teacher gives them the music to play:



The first who has only started playing piano and is still trying to master Mary Has a Little Lamb played with one hand, misses all the notes, and can't even read the music, whereas the second plays it.  One is the more skilled pianist, and I do believe that one can objectively say that is is the better pianist.  Performance is a component of music, and I don't think it can all be about opinion.  One person may prefer the newbie trying the Ligeti, but I would think if that person knows something about music that that person would recognise that one performance is superior (within the framework of the piece).  I would say that one's exjoyment of music comes down to one's taste, but there's much more to music (understanding it, for instance, and being knowledgable about music theory) than personal opinion.

 "Everybody knows that music is only ever going to be personal opinion" is a strange statement.

There are machines that can analyse sound within set parameters, but how they do it does depend on how it's set up to do so (so one can say that biases are inherent to the nature of the program). It's an interesting topic to me. and it's not just philosophy, it's science.

Level of accuracy is a quality (factor) of the performance, and can be analysed in a largely objective fashion, subjectivity can also play a part.


Edited by Logan - July 20 2011 at 14:38

thehallway wrote:   Logan wrote:  ...and it's not just philosophy, it's science... Now you've completely lost my attention.

Music is science?

You can judge the quality of a perfomance scientifically , but how can you see what's separate a masterpiece of music from what's not a masterpiece?

rdtprog wrote: thehallway wrote:   Logan wrote:  ...and it's not just philosophy, it's science... Now you've completely lost my attention.  Music is science? You can judge the quality of a perfomance scientifically , but how can you see what's separate a masterpiece of music from what's not a masterpiece?

I never said that music is science, but there is a science of music, and one can use science to analyse components of music.  That was said in regards to analysing sound (for instance, frequencies).  As for your question, while on-topic, it is not quite the concept I was exploring.  It relates, though, because I believe that one can judge music (specific elements) within a given framework without losing all objectivity.  Performance is but one element of music, but I find it an easy one to convey the idea of how music can be fairly considered better than another within set expectations.


Edited by Logan - July 20 2011 at 15:18

cstack3 wrote: What is a Masterpiece of Progressive?    I'm not sure, but it would have to involve Mellotrons.

Yes, good point!, maybe in favor of Logan the " Science Man ", i think the sound of a cd is a important factor on the quality level, and those mellotrons sound are so seductive... if not addictive....

cstack3 wrote: What is a Masterpiece of Progressive?    I'm not sure, but it would have to involve Mellotrons.

aginor wrote: In a Glass House is to me a materpiece but it does not feature Mellotrons,

Planet Mellotron says GG stopped using them just before this album. Do you know why? I think Glass House might have been even better with some 'tron.

aginor wrote: In a Glass House is to me a materpiece but it does not feature Mellotrons,

 Yes it is !

I don't think a masterpiece of anything can be determined without a passage of time.