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Topic ClosedWhat do you think of Peter Hamill's(VDGG)singing?

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Poll Question: What do you think of Peter Hammill's vocals?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
57 [57.58%]
12 [12.12%]
4 [4.04%]
2 [2.02%]
2 [2.02%]
6 [6.06%]
1 [1.01%]
15 [15.15%]
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Dayvenkirq View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2013 at 02:00
I like his singing, the wacko aspect in particular. It's like second home for me.

I don't want to be one wave in the watEEEEEEEEEEEER
But sea will drag me deep
One more haggard DROWNED MAN ...

Absolutely killer singing. I go nuts to that.


Edited by Dayvenkirq - February 18 2013 at 02:10
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2013 at 23:34
I loved his voice when I first heard it ("Aerosol" being my first album, "Afterwards" being the song). The early voice, before the harsh rawness roared in, was once described as a "male Nico" and I can see it. Not perfect, a little off here and there, but totally alluring. The second album I got was Vital, recorded ten years later. I couldn't believe it was the same guy. I've never, and I mean never, heard of the same singer changing his approach so much. It wasn't just the style, it was his actual voice. It just didn't sound like the same human being. Almost like he hit puberty in his mid-late twenties and the voice changed...
 
His voice fits the music perfectly, and he is probably the only guy I can think of where you can play four or five different tunes to an unfamiliar music fan and make them think it's four or five completely different singers (i.e. "Afterwards" sounds nothing like the singer on "Arrow," and neither sound anything like the singer on "Central Hotel," etc).
 
But there's no denying that one of the things that held the group back as far as mass appeal, was Hammill's voice. Some people love it, others hate it. I've known many people over the years that liked VdGG's music but just couldn't get past The Voice. Reciprocally, a lot of my friends who liked punk and metal really dug VdGG when I played it for them; these are guys and gals who normally hate prog.
 
Hammill is certainly one of the most highly regarded and critically lauded artists of the classic prog era (he's a sort of critic's darling, one of the few classic proggers that it's "okay" to like, probably because of the eclectic array of people he's influenced, which includes several punk rockers), but he's still a major cult artist rather than a super star success. There are way more music fans who don't of know him than there are ones who do. I love his voice, but have always felt that if he just sort of... you know, reigned it in a bit at certain points, then he might have been more successful. He's certainly capable of singing in a very smooth, mainstream syle (listen to "After The Show" from Skin... none of that warbly, harsh vocalizing in sight), but since much of his material is a bit edgy with dark subject matter prevalent, he chooses a vocal delivery that corresponds. Great for the song, not so much for those who don't like anguished or cracked vocalizing.


Edited by bucka001 - June 13 2013 at 23:53
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2013 at 23:52
He may very well be the greatest rock singer of all time.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2013 at 06:52
Love at first sight ... sound, I meant to say
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2013 at 11:24
His vocals do nothing for me, except for maybe The Arrow.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2013 at 11:40
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2013 at 12:40
I think PH is the greatest vocalist in prog history.  He has an incredible range and can go from a smooth delicate falsetto to a gut wrenching scream in a flash.  I think his best singing is found on the live albums "Vital" and "Room Temperature Live"...I saw his 1990 tour in San Francisco about 10 ft from the stage...incredibly powerful...he had the whole crowd breathlessly silent and on the edge of their seats...  


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   is a vampyre and it feeds on me
      now staggering madly over the brink I FALL"


Edited by The.Crimson.King - June 14 2013 at 12:42
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2013 at 16:24
He's the reason I can't listen to VDGG.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 15 2013 at 10:49
Originally posted by bucka001 bucka001 wrote:








I loved his voice when I first heard it ("Aerosol" being my first album, "Afterwards" being the song). The early voice, before the harsh rawness roared in, was once described as a "male Nico" and I can see it. Not perfect, a little off here and there, but totally alluring. The second album I got was Vital, recorded ten years later. I couldn't believe it was the same guy. I've never, and I mean never, heard of the same singer changing his approach so much. It wasn't just the style, it was his actual voice. It just didn't sound like the same human being. Almost like he hit puberty in his mid-late twenties and the voice changed...
 
His voice fits the music perfectly, and he is probably the only guy I can think of where you can play four or five different tunes to an unfamiliar music fan and make them think it's four or five completely different singers (i.e. "Afterwards" sounds nothing like the singer on "Arrow," and neither sound anything like the singer on "Central Hotel," etc).
 
But there's no denying that one of the things that held the group back as far as mass appeal, was Hammill's voice. Some people love it, others hate it. I've known many people over the years that liked VdGG's music but just couldn't get past The Voice. Reciprocally, a lot of my friends who liked punk and metal really dug VdGG when I played it for them; these are guys and gals who normally hate prog.
 
Hammill is certainly one of the most highly regarded and critically lauded artists of the classic prog era (he's a sort of critic's darling, one of the few classic proggers that it's "okay" to like, probably because of the eclectic array of people he's influenced, which includes several punk rockers), but he's still a major cult artist rather than a super star success. There are way more music fans who don't of know him than there are ones who do. I love his voice, but have always felt that if he just sort of... you know, reigned it in a bit at certain points, then he might have been more successful. He's certainly capable of singing in a very smooth, mainstream syle (listen to "After The Show" from Skin... none of that warbly, harsh vocalizing in sight), but since much of his material is a bit edgy with dark subject matter prevalent, he chooses a vocal delivery that corresponds. Great for the song, not so much for those who don't like anguished or cracked vocalizing.







About a singer changing so much his voice from one time to another, what about Greg Lake? I couldn't believe what happened to his voice when I heard "Black Moon". I wouldn't say he was singing bad, it's just now what I expected of him...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 15 2013 at 12:48
Basically the last option "I like his passion but not so much his voice" although by now I got used to it, but his timbre and frequent over-dramatism could get on my nerves years ago. And not only me, it was probably the main reason why my closest prog friends never got much into VDGG.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 15 2013 at 22:34
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

He may very well be the greatest rock singer of all time.
 
LOL
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 15 2013 at 22:35
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Basically the last option "I like his passion but not so much his voice" although by now I got used to it, but his timbre and frequent over-dramatism could get on my nerves years ago. And not only me, it was probably the main reason why my closest prog friends never got much into VDGG.
 
That about sums up how i feel about his voice....i've gotten used to it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 15 2013 at 22:50
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

He may very well be the greatest rock singer of all time.
 
LOL
 

He's in my Top 5 Singers of all time. Better than most is close enough Cool
Crushed like a rose in the riverflow.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 16 2013 at 01:50
Originally posted by Horizons Horizons wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

He may very well be the greatest rock singer of all time.
 
LOL
 

He's in my Top 5 Singers of all time. Better than most is close enough Cool


Well, greatness has to be about more than just personal tastes, I guess.   For sheer influence or sheer ability, I could name at least a few rock singers whose names would reasonably precede Hammill's.  Plant, Daltrey, Gillian, Mercury for the former or Patton, Tim Buckley, Ronnie James Dio for the latter.  Among others. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 16 2013 at 04:43
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:


For sheer influence or sheer ability, I could name at least a few rock singers whose names would reasonably precede Hammill's. Plant, Daltrey, Gillian, Mercury for the former or Patton, Tim Buckley, Ronnie James Dio for the latter. Among others.
Fair enough. As far as influence, most of those named have sold gazillions of records so they're going to be more influential. Hammill's output is much less commercial (which doesn't mean it's "better"); he has made a successful 45 year career of working on the fringe, mining the outer edge of style, fashion, etc, which obviously appeals to him and his fanbase. That'll equate to less units sold than the superstars you mention, but it doesn't make him less great... just less successful (but still successful).
 
As far as ability, Hammill was never a 'perfect' singer, but he makes up for that in other areas (all of this with the understanding that his voice can be a real turnoff for some in a way that those mentioned probably are not). The broad range of styles, from punk growl to choirboy falsetto, from wistfull gentleness to angst ridden howl, is not too common amongst the majority of famous rock vocalists. You seriously can play four or five Hammill tunes to an unsuspecting listener and have them thinking that all songs are being sung by different people. So there is tremendous ability and range there, but maybe just not the obvious type that immediately springs to mind when discussing such things.
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:


Well, greatness has to be about more than just personal tastes, I guess.
As far as greatness, the fact that one can sustain a very successful 45 year career doing pretty much what he's always wanted to do without giving an inch, is pretty great on a lot of levels. I know Stratton Smith (Hammill's old label boss and manager at Charisma) always thought that PH either subconsciously or consciously averted fame. Like, when an album was moderately successful or the public/critics were more accepting of him, he'd follow it up with a musique concrete album, or something pretty dumb career-wise. Still, he's played by his own rules and has been able to have his cake and eat it.
 
But I suppose (among other things) that critical perception plays a part to the concept of 'greatness' you mention. All the singers you list certainly are legendary and even iconic in some cases. But modern critical assessment of Hammill's work is very favorable as well. Lots of press, great reputation for several years now (better than when he was actually in his 70's heyday; critics didn't mind taking a bash at him now and then at that time; now he's pretty golden). Classic Rock Magazine (not the prog CRP, but the general mainstream mag) included Hammill as one of their 50 Icons of British Rock, with a written essay by fan Jack Endino (producer of Nirvana, Soundgarden, etc); Mojo Magazine summed up his career with, "From ballet to bedlam to breadwinning, the career of Peter Hammill has been one of the most indominable journeys in post-war British Music"; Uncut simply called VdGG "the coolest, strangest band in prog"; The Rough Guide To Rock has stated that if Britain ever opens its own Rock Hall of Fame, then Hammill should have a spot; recent feature articles in The Wire, Record Collector, and newspapers such as The Times, The Independent, etc, also have been laudatory. This is all Briain, but even in the States there has been some great stuff of late (PBS TV 1/2 hour special last year on VdGG; New York Times writeup (the most famous of the several newspapers covering VdGG's recent tour[s]); a nice radio piece on NPR's "All Things Considered" where it was stated that while prog may have been overblown, Hammill was the one classic prog guy who got it right (not a popular opinion on this board where prog is much loved, or one I subscribe to, but a common theme when PH is written/talked about by mainstream press). He even got a great feature article in Guitar Player Magazine; I'll be the first to admit that the guy is no Wes Montgomery, so I was surprised by that (Britain's equivalent, Guitar and Bass Magazine, also gave him a big article; PH ain't the greatest string picker, and has problems even staying in tune, so I don't get where these guitar nerds, who actually can play, are praising him and giving him space in specialty guitar mags... but that's by the by). So, PH certainly can't compete with the people you mention in terms of success (and I like some of those you mention) but that doesn't mean that he's not great also.


Edited by bucka001 - June 16 2013 at 04:48
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 16 2013 at 04:55
Never said Hammill is not great or not influential.  Just not as talented or as influential (or both, which is often the case) to be the greatest rock singer of all times, which is pretty lofty.  I agree that popularity gets into the picture with respect to influence but that is why I have also considered ability.  For his influence on prog and punk and also his range, I would say Hammill scores pretty high on both counts but there are others who I would rate higher for either.  He may be versatile but he is hardly the only singer who is that versatile.  Patton has covered more styles of singing than just about any singer in rock music and there are others like Tom Waits or Daniel Gildenlow who are also very versatile.  Hammill's versatility may have particularly stood out in the 70s but time doesn't stand still and singers have learnt to adapt their voices to myriad styles and moods. 

Let's be clear:  the question I addressed is not whether he is the greatest prog rock singer, but greatest in ROCK.   As a Hammill fan, you would also agree that there is a lot more to rock than just prog.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 16 2013 at 04:58
Sheer genius! I love Hammill
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 16 2013 at 05:13
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Never said Hammill is not great or not influential.  Just not as talented or as influential (or both, which is often the case) to be the greatest rock singer of all times, which is pretty lofty. 
 
Well, yeah... I'm with you there.
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

I agree that popularity gets into the picture with respect to influence but that is why I have also considered ability.  For his influence on prog and punk and also his range, I would say Hammill scores pretty high on both counts but there are others who I would rate higher for either. 
 
Again, fair enough (we are in the area of personal taste here, though). Many he has influenced, though, are neither prog nor punk.
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

He may be versatile but he is hardly the only singer who is that versatile.  Patton has covered more styles of singing than just about any singer in rock music and there are others like Tom Waits or Daniel Gildenlow who are also very versatile.  Hammill's versatility may have particularly stood out in the 70s but time doesn't stand still and singers have learnt to adapt their voices to myriad styles and moods.  
I appreciate a good conversation; it's not about 'winning' with me, and you make good points. I could google and try to appear all-knowing, but the truth is that I'm having a brain fart with who Patton is (it's the one name I didn't recognize from your original list). And I don't know who Daniel Gildenlow is. Tom Waits I do know, but not the whole catalog. Just the gruff stuff (which I like). I can't imagine him with that silky smooth choirboy falsetto that Hammill is capable of, but maybe those recordings exist. Great story, though. Hammill was playing in (I think) Los Angelos once, came into the hotel lobby after the gig, and some guy was sitting there with a hat pulled down covering his face. The guy said, gruffly, "Hey, Hammill... How's it going." Turned out it was TW.
This thing about versatility has a bit of interest for me. Hammill's versatility is something I'm convinced of. But I love Captain Beefheart, but when people write about his versatility and "four octave voice," I'm just not getting it. He may sound marginally different at times, but you can always tell it's him. If you're interested, do a YouTube for two PH/VdGG songs: "Afterwards" from the Aerosol Gray Machine album, and "Door" from Vital. That's the kind of range and versatility I'm talking about.
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Let's be clear:  the question I addressed is not whether he is the greatest prog rock singer, but greatest in ROCK.   As a Hammill fan, you would also agree that there is a lot more to rock than just prog.
Well, my big confession here is that I'm not a huge prog fan anymore. There is way more Steppenwolf, P.I.L., James Gang, Dead Kennedys, Buddy Guy, etc, stuff in my collection than there is Gentle Giant, Genesis, ELP, etc. I had all that prog stuff on vinyl decades ago and am familiar, but VdGG is just about the only classic prog band I still have on CD (wait... I like Magma also). And, as I mentioned earlier in this post, PH's influence is pretty widespread as far as who he's influenced; it's an eclectic mix from torch singers like Marc Almond, to metal-heads like Bruce Dickinson, to guys from Wilco, Duran Duran, Blur, Red Hot Chili Peppers, etc.


Edited by bucka001 - June 16 2013 at 05:15
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 16 2013 at 05:23
Mike Patton is best known as the singer of Faith No More, but worked with, well, an incredible number of bands/collaborations by whatever name called.   He can 'sing' guttural growls (I mean, cookie monster kind of stuff, not just harsh singing), can rap, can cover Black Sabbath, Lionel Ritchie, Sparks and old Italian pop music, to mention only a few illustrations of his versatility.  If you asked him to do it all in the same concert, he probably could.   I confess I am not a huge fan of his because on a personal level, I feel a complete lack of emotion when he sings (which is probably how he intends it as most of his work is a kind of parody of rock excesses) but I haven't yet heard another singer as versatile as him. 

Daniel Gildenlow is the singer of the Swedish band Pain of Salvation.  His style is predominantly metal but he is also at ease with R&B (maybe the more modern stuff than classic R&B), rapping, etc.  He sounds somewhat like a less overwrought version of Bruce Dickinson but is somehow able to adapt the same voice to a pop standard like Hallelujah.

As for Hammill, I am reasonably aware of his work (more the VDGG stuff than solo) and have never found him unrecognizable (nevertheless, will do that comparison you mentioned just now anyway).  I don't necessarily consider that a limitation on versatility because the ability to retain some aspects of your vocal personality while covering diverse styles is important. 




Edited by rogerthat - June 16 2013 at 05:26
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 16 2013 at 05:30
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Mike Patton is best known as the singer of Faith No More,
Daniel Gildenlow is the singer of the Swedish band Pain of Salvation. 
Ahhh, okay. Heard of both of those bands. Thanks for the info.
 
 
 
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

As for Hammill, I am reasonably aware of his work (more the VDGG stuff than solo) and have never found him irrecognizable (nevertheless, will do that comparison you mentioned just now anyway). 
 
Well, you're in for a shock when you do the comparison. Remember, the first VdGG song I ever heard was Afterwards from the Aerosol album (which is the first tune I recommended on YouTube). Loved it and went to the nearest 2nd hand record store and bought the only VdG album they had, Vital. "Door" (my second rec) comes from that. To say I was like "WTF?????" would be very accurate. If you can find me two examples of another singer where there's this much of a difference vocal-wise, please give me the names of the two tunes and the artist.
 
I'm not up on embedding vids, but maybe someone can put those two tunes up here so folks can hear what I'm on about.
 
Fun stuff, anyway!
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