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Topic ClosedStanding up for the 3 star rating

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Kati View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2014 at 04:43
I think that rating an album released within two years, one would only be able to rate it if they also wrote an review for it, this would stop most manipulation I believe.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2014 at 04:44
While I'd never purposely avoid any album that has a 3-star average, I'd certainly read several reviews of the album before deciding whether to give it a listen or not, and even then I'm more likely to go for one of the artist's higher rated album first.

Unfortunately here at the PA there is a huge discrepancy between someone awarding an album three stars and an album having a three-star average rating. An album can achieve a 3-star average simply by having an equal number of 1 and 5 star ratings. It is unlikely that such a polarised album is going to be a true 3-star album. 

There is certainly a perception that 3-stars is a low rating and I think that is partly justified, "3" is the median value (ie it is the middle number in the sequence 1,2,3,4,5) it is not the mean (average) nor is it the mode (the score with the highest number of votes). 

Since 1-star is mostly reserved for albums that people strongly dislike it (and as a manipulative hate-boy rating) and 5-stars are awarded far too glibly (IMO) we have an extreme non-linearity in the awarding of ratings (ie the gaps between the scores are not equal, for example the gap between 1 and 2 is subjectively far wider than the gap between 4 and 5). Therefore any statistical analysis of ratings loses all validity and since they are subjective rather than empirically objective we should never use them comparatively

I would say that a truer average value would possibly fall somewhere between 3.5 and 4 across a band's discography, but really shouldn't be used to compare two albums by different bands.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2014 at 04:53
1 star rating I think is unessassery unless there is a specific valid reason for it, thus a written justification as to why 1 star rating was given.   
Otherwise it's spiteful and mean spirited in my view.

Edited by Kati - March 08 2014 at 04:54
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2014 at 04:56
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

1 star rating I think is unessassery unless there is a specific valid reason for it, thus a written justification as to why 1 star rating was given.   
We don't judge the quality of a band when adding them to the Archive so being here is not a certificate of merit, therefore 1-star ratings are valid. Unfortunately the system is widely abused. 

But you are correct, and I would extend that to every rating. every rating should be justified.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2014 at 04:59
^ very good points there certainly.,

No-one repeatedly buys albums they loathe. (Music journalists get them for free)
Yes we all make poor spending decisions from time to time but how many oranges do you have to eat before you decide you don't like 'em? Very few of us on PA are sufficiently naive to believe that a huge proportion of the 1 star reviews that proliferate on the site can be from anything other than sad sack manipulators, streaming audio versions or illegal download sites.

We can't do anything about the last two but we can address the first:

I'm starting to finally come round to the view that we should remove the facility to review by rating only. What made me resist this conclusion previously is that it was the only way a non english speaker could contribute to the site. Given that we have an english speaking only forum, this objection seems rather moot




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2014 at 05:03
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:


Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

1 star rating I think is unessassery unless there is a specific valid reason for it, thus a written justification as to why 1 star rating was given.   

We don't judge the quality of a band when adding them to the Archive so being here is not a certificate of merit, therefore 1-star ratings are valid. Unfortunately the system is widely abused. 
But you are correct, and I would extend that to every rating. every rating should be justified.


This is not necessary true, Dean. Bands to be added here on P.A. have to be voted in and have sponsors thus not as simple as you describe it. I doubt a bad composed mediocre album would have 3 yes votes from collabs to be accepted.
Anyway going off topic here, you are my fav grumpy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2014 at 05:20
I will leave the bad reviews to those who are considered reviewers pro or not. I much rather focus in reviewing the odd or not bands I enjoyed to listen, thus prefer to write a review that I feel and is meaningful to me.
P.S. I am not even close articulate compared to most if any reviewer here
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2014 at 06:09
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:


Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

1 star rating I think is unessassery unless there is a specific valid reason for it, thus a written justification as to why 1 star rating was given.   

We don't judge the quality of a band when adding them to the Archive so being here is not a certificate of merit, therefore 1-star ratings are valid. Unfortunately the system is widely abused. 
But you are correct, and I would extend that to every rating. every rating should be justified.


This is not necessary true, Dean. Bands to be added here on P.A. have to be voted in and have sponsors thus not as simple as you describe it. I doubt a bad composed mediocre album would have 3 yes votes from collabs to be accepted.
Anyway going off topic here, you are my fav grumpy
That's not how the voting works Sonia.The teams decide only whether a band is Prog or not, they do not decide whether the artist is worthy based upon any subjective criteria. This is why we tend to be very selective in who gets to be on a genre team.  A badly composed mediocre album would most certainly get accepted if it was deemed to be a progressive rock album that fitted that particular subgenre. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2014 at 06:16
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:


Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:


Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

1 star rating I think is unessassery unless there is a specific valid reason for it, thus a written justification as to why 1 star rating was given.   

We don't judge the quality of a band when adding them to the Archive so being here is not a certificate of merit, therefore 1-star ratings are valid. Unfortunately the system is widely abused. 
But you are correct, and I would extend that to every rating. every rating should be justified.


This is not necessary true, Dean. Bands to be added here on P.A. have to be voted in and have sponsors thus not as simple as you describe it. I doubt a bad composed mediocre album would have 3 yes votes from collabs to be accepted.
Anyway going off topic here, you are my fav grumpy

That's not how the voting works Sonia.The teams decide only whether a band is Prog or not, they do not decide whether the artist is worthy based upon any subjective criteria. This is why we tend to be very selective in who gets to be on a genre team. <span style="line-height: 1.2;"> </span><span style="line-height: 1.2;">A badly composed mediocre album would most certainly get accepted if it was deemed to be a</span><span style="line-height: 1.2;"> progressive rock album that fitted that particular subgenre. </span>

Uhm not quite sure nor convinced what you said Dean, bands have to be accepted to PA and placed within their specific group genre, I sincerely doubt that any band which is mediocre falling more into bad would be accepted by any PA collab never mind 3 and/or the genre group.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2014 at 06:25
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:


Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:


Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

1 star rating I think is unessassery unless there is a specific valid reason for it, thus a written justification as to why 1 star rating was given.   

We don't judge the quality of a band when adding them to the Archive so being here is not a certificate of merit, therefore 1-star ratings are valid. Unfortunately the system is widely abused. 
But you are correct, and I would extend that to every rating. every rating should be justified.


This is not necessary true, Dean. Bands to be added here on P.A. have to be voted in and have sponsors thus not as simple as you describe it. I doubt a bad composed mediocre album would have 3 yes votes from collabs to be accepted.
Anyway going off topic here, you are my fav grumpy

That's not how the voting works Sonia.The teams decide only whether a band is Prog or not, they do not decide whether the artist is worthy based upon any subjective criteria. This is why we tend to be very selective in who gets to be on a genre team. <span style="line-height: 1.2;"> </span><span style="line-height: 1.2;">A badly composed mediocre album would most certainly get accepted if it was deemed to be a</span><span style="line-height: 1.2;"> progressive rock album that fitted that particular subgenre. </span>

Uhm not quite sure nor convinced what you said Dean, bands have to be accepted to PA and placed within their specific group genre, I sincerely doubt that any band which is mediocre falling more into bad would be accepted by any PA collab never mind 3 and/or the genre group.
Whether you are convinced or not doesn't change how bands are evaluated here. Bands get accepted regardless of the quality of their albums. We only decide whether they fit the genre, not whether they are any good ot not. Them's the facts.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2014 at 06:34
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Whether you are convinced or not doesn't change how bands are evaluated here. Bands get accepted regardless of the quality of their albums. We only decide whether they fit the genre, not whether they are any good ot not. Them's the facts.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2014 at 06:50
This is interesting.

Question: Would a parody/spoof/lampoon Prog band say, something like Spinal Tap but with very accomplished musicians who tick all the Prog boxes be admitted to PA because the music is indisputably Prog albeit disingenuous?
Common sense should tell us you can't bluff your way through a genre like Prog but similarly, would a clearly incompetent musician attempting to play Prog but failing miserably be considered admissible to PA notwithstanding their music is by any reasonable consensus unadulterated s.h.i.t.e.?

The Shaggs were a female pop group, albeit a spectacularly crap one but would a pop music site exclude them because of their perceived lack of ability?


I only ask this because it relates to my earlier post about how 'post internet' artists do not have to trawl through the record company route to reach their targeted audience etc




Edited by ExittheLemming - March 08 2014 at 07:09
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2014 at 07:05
10 (5) — a masterwork
9 (4.5) — more than just a solid album but not enough to call it a masterpiece
8 (4) — a solid work
7 (3.5) — definitely a good and tasty LP but might have some flaws as well as excellent stuff
6 (3) — not really a bad album, it might lack truly entertaiing moments or have one or two in overall. Some might like it but some can find it boring.
5 (2.5) — a mediocre work. It's still not terrible so it's bearable to listen to it once or twice but it barely has anything worthy to offer
4 (2) — the best you can dig out of worst
3 (1.5) — really only a few albums on PA deserve such a low rating, but there are some definitely
2 (1) — better fits with pop music
1 (0.5) — better fits with hip hop music

Please note that this rating system works only with the studio LPs. Live and compilation albums are being rated only in accordance with its usefullness for the chosen band's fans.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2014 at 07:09
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

This is interesting.

Question: Would a parody/spoof/lampoon Prog band say, something like Spinal Tap but with very accomplished musicians who tick all the Prog boxes be admitted to PA because the music is undoubtedly Prog albeit disingenuous?


I only ask this because it relates to my earlier post about how 'post internet' artists do not have to trawl through the record company route to reach their targeted audience etc
That's two different scenarios really. But yes, a parody would in principle be accepted. 

As an aside: I don't know if you are aware that comedic actor Matt Berry is a musician who dabbles in psych folk end of the prog spectrum, along with four  very straight and serious albums he produced a JC Superstar parody ADBC: A Rock Opera. However, if he ever gets suggested and evaluated for his Jackpot, Opium, Witchhazel and To Kill The Wolf albums then that parody would not be considered as part of his discography.because it has yet to see the light of day on album.


but I digress. (Because I like Matt Berry's stuff)

The millions of Blandkampft suggestions that Sventonioioio pukes our way would also be accepted if they met the criteria for addition, however for self-released artists we do allow the team leaders some discretion on whether they choose to evaluate them or not. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2014 at 07:11
^ apologies Dean, I updated my post since you responded.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2014 at 09:46
The one-star rating is one I would only give if the release utterly fails in what it was trying or meant to do, and not merely because I didn't like it.  In fact, if there's an album I really dislike that DOES succeed in what it's trying to do, I would probably decline on reviewing it in the first place, figuring that my opinion isn't really going to speak to anyone who's interested enough about the band to read a review. It's not as if I have a duty to rate everything I hear or form an opinion about.   It's "outside of my area" to put it kindly.   I have nothing to gain by  trying to turn people away from an album many others would probably love, just because it's not my kind of music.  However, if there were a compilation put out by a band I did care about, but it was horribly done, had terrible sound, poor song selection, etc, then I could give something like that one star while secure in the knowledge that that opinion is at least one that would be of use to fans of the band.  So far, I have not given any one-star ratings.

Edited by HolyMoly - March 08 2014 at 09:50
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2014 at 10:20
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

P.S. I honestly do believe that no band/album is deserving of 1 star if they made it into P.A. This to me is nasty and smells like figures manipulation and this is not nice. One should rise by merit, I have no problem with new members joining to support their favourite band, this to me is fantastic however giving high scores to the favourite meanwhile rating others on purpose low is not nice and I think bands want reach the top by merit too not manipulation.


I don't know if this would be true, but I know that I have yet to come across an album that I would rate 1 star.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2014 at 10:44
3 stars should be: Good album, and if you like this band or artist, you'll probably enjoy this album.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2014 at 13:32

I find ratings by themselves of little value.  The people applying them may or may not know much about music or they may simply be applying an immediate emotional response.  Neither of these mean much - you can't know why somebody gave that rating.  But reviews are another thing.  With those, I can make a better judgment on the album and the reviewer's ability to say something meaningful, informed, and intelligent beyond "This sucks," or "That's great."  My pet peeve is the reviewers who write about how bad an album is and still give four or five stars.  I don't think they understand how rating systems work.  Also, with reading a review, as has been stated above, I can find out those whose views and tastes fit best with mine.  We are a diverse community here and I would not have it any other way.

Allowing half-star ratings, or even a ten star system would give us more nuance but would still be subject to the same misinterpretations.

As to one star ratings, I have noticed that many of them are given to bands who did great earlier work but for some reason or another, allowed the quality to decline.  A prime example is Triumvirat: Early albums have high ratings and deservedly so, later ones low ratings, also deservedly so.  They were a band who moved from the heights of proginess to mere pop. BTW, I can enjoy pop, but there too is good pop and bad pop. A good band can put out bad music.  But note, too, that the guidelines for ratings indicate using the one star sparingly.  I agree with that.  There are not many albums that bad, yet they do exist.  Unfortunately, it is evident that many people do not read the guidelines.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2014 at 13:40
Yep, couldn't have put it better.  I only ever take the ratings into considerations when I'm reading reviews from the handful of prolific reviewers with very similar tastes to mine.
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