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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2009 at 09:34
Originally posted by Toaster Mantis Toaster Mantis wrote:

Originally posted by The Antique The Antique wrote:

Well, prog often operates on a very emotionally detached level, making it harder to connect to the songs. When you can't connect to the songs, they're less interesting.
I wouldn't say that it's emotionally detached as much as just being more formally and rigidly structured in a somewhat affected academic or high-brow attitude. It's different from the same mentality as a lot of traditional rock'n'roll but it's just as emotional even though it's engaging in a completely different way.



Well, when I say it operates on an emotionally detached level, I mean that, as funny as the image is, you just can't bond with lines like "there's Winston Churchhill dressed in drag" or the nonsense lyrics of Jon Anderson in the same way that you would bond to something as stark and simple as, say, Animal Collectives "and I want to walk around with you, and I want to walk around with you, and I want to walk around with you, just you, just you, just you, just you."
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2009 at 06:13
it always seemed to me that prog was too stimulating for people rather than boring, I mean 'boring' is quantifiable, isn't it?  OK maybe not--  endless, demanding, twiddly, obsessive, but boring prog is not


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2009 at 04:39
Originally posted by The Antique The Antique wrote:

Well, prog often operates on a very emotionally detached level, making it harder to connect to the songs. When you can't connect to the songs, they're less interesting.


I wouldn't say that it's emotionally detached as much as just being more formally and rigidly structured in a somewhat affected academic or high-brow attitude. It's different from the same mentality as a lot of traditional rock'n'roll but it's just as emotional even though it's engaging in a completely different way.

To explain this further: Remember that metaphor I used with the chakras earlier in the thread? Well, you could say that ordinary rock (stereotypically, at least) stimulates the lower chakras more but doesn't reach the higher ones that often whereas progressive rock reaches for the ones high up the ladder. This sometimes happens at the expense of interesting the lower ones so that it reaches for perhaps the solar plexus and up or even straight for the brain and beyond. Now, this is all good and enough but this will also mean that this kind of music won't do much to... I dunno, unblock the tangles of energy in the lower ones which blocks the stuff reaching higher up. When you've got something like that, you're more likely to listen to some music which does that and such music can reach up to the higher levels too. My all-time favourite bands are those who have that versality, and that applies to any genre but I do admit that a lot of progressive rock could understand that lesson better. This is not the same as pop sensibility, I should probably clarify, because I think that atonal dissonant freakout stuff can have a certain visceral appeal to it too even though it doesn't make any efforts towards being catchy.

I don't mean this literally, of course, but it's the same principle. I'm probably overtly simplifying things here, though, people more into the Eastern mysticism from where the chakra concept (which I'm only using allegorically) come can feel free to correct. I just wanted to have a handy way of explaining things to use, and when I already had used that as a springboard for discussing Seven by Seven... LOL You could just as well use Nietzsche's Dionysian/Apollinic dichotomy which is simpler but more reductionist but, hey, so is every way of trying to explain anything. Wink


Edited by Toaster Mantis - August 19 2009 at 04:41
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2009 at 03:01
Well, prog often operates on a very emotionally detached level, making it harder to connect to the songs. When you can't connect to the songs, they're less interesting.

Obviously a lot of listeners have poor attention spans, too, but the same can be argued for prog listeners. They have ears for the longer stuff, but neglect the appeal of a perfect pop song. They are too easily bored with repetition, which is just as bad (IMO) as being bored with a lack of repetition.

Different strokes, I guess.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2009 at 02:23
Originally posted by Pangaea Pangaea wrote:

Yes they do. Which is why I like them. They are the standard to which I hold other bands to. Sadly, for me anyway, very few match up, for the reasons I mentioned. Others do match up, for other reasons. But that isn't confusing. Yes writes songs. They don't just pile on cliches. They were breaking new ground with each new album back in their prime. I don't see any new ground being broken today, no Progression in today's progrock. It's all just variations on stuff that's been done before. Combinations of metal and prog that's been done to death. There was a hint of some new things going on with some of the first post-rock music coming out a few years ago, but then everybody started sounding like everyone else and . . . it ended up in the same boat that metal, and prog was in. Lots of history and sub-genres, but little true progressive art happening. Unlike say, Close To The Edge or Supper's Ready.

What current stuff have you heard? While I mostly agree with you concerning the past as opposed to the current era, I'm interested to hear what you have heard from today and rejected. Have you only listened to the "popular" stuff like Dream Theater, Marillion, etc. or checked out some of the smaller/indie bands as well?



Edited by Kestrel - August 19 2009 at 02:23
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2009 at 00:19
I'll meet Pangaea halfway.  I don't understand the mindset of hating Innervisions with all your heart and then proclaiming The SnowGoose to be a masterpiece.  Just an example, there are people here who love both albums or at least one of them, I like Innervisions more.  Likewise, while much of modern prog goes right over me, I also don't particularly like a lot of modern pop/rock music, so I am not too surprised about how I find it difficult to like modern prog. But I cannot understand you if you say you simply cannot stand modern pop and then call Another Day an alltime best song or something.  Can you really not see the ties between the popular scene and the prog scene? At least in the more melodic side of prog, they are readily evident.  Personally, complexity for the sake of it doesn't cut it at all for me and I'd rather listen to simplicity (call it banality if it suits you) for the sake of it.  If both end up doing nothing for me, why not the simpler song, same 'reward' for much less effort!  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2009 at 00:05
I hear you Pangea, good points. As far as taking Progressive Rock to the next level, well that is a challenge. But it is particularly difficult to when compared to iconic releases like you mentioned.
 
That said, have you heard Frost* Milliontown release or Particle King Picture or any of the latest from Porcupine Tree? You might even enjoy - although I seldom recommend this unless I think a person could find it interesting - anything from Carptree (maybe Man Made Machine, or Superhero). I only suggest these since you mentioned a liking for the folk song genre. Carptree isn't that, but it is essentially one artist (with a few side men), keeping it relatively simple so the lyrical content is forefront - but it remains in a progressive vein, and I have found - after a few listens - the music to be uniquely memorable.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2009 at 15:41
Originally posted by Pangaea Pangaea wrote:

  
 
 
Hey, our first posts here . . . did we make ourselves welcome? (maybe you did  :~ )
 
 
Sure you didn't make yourselves welcome... An interesting and civilsed debate... we don't like that sort of thing around these here partsLOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2009 at 14:21

Yes they do. Which is why I like them. They are the standard to which I hold other bands to. Sadly, for me anyway, very few match up, for the reasons I mentioned. Others do match up, for other reasons. But that isn't confusing. Yes writes songs. They don't just pile on cliches. They were breaking new ground with each new album back in their prime. I don't see any new ground being broken today, no Progression in today's progrock. It's all just variations on stuff that's been done before. Combinations of metal and prog that's been done to death. There was a hint of some new things going on with some of the first post-rock music coming out a few years ago, but then everybody started sounding like everyone else and . . . it ended up in the same boat that metal, and prog was in. Lots of history and sub-genres, but little true progressive art happening. Unlike say, Close To The Edge or Supper's Ready.

But hey, it's all good, HotToad5, I wasn't picking on you, just the delivery, which seemed condescending (which I'm fairly sure you didn't intend or even realise it) and that is one reason I don't like alot of progrock. I've been there, I know. I was constantly on my bandmates to get into more of the prog rock area. They just weren't suited for it. Once I found musicians who were, it was good, but I came to dislike their superior attitude. Perhaps that was something I had found myself doing and came to not wish to identify with any more. It takes one to know one sort of thing.

 
Nah, it wasn't an anti-progrock rant so much as a rant against specific aspects of progrock that irk me, which is what the original poster was asking for. I'm certain that people can, and will, dislike aspects of the bands that I do like. That's human nature.  
 
 
Hey, our first posts here . . . did we make ourselves welcome? (maybe you did  :~ )
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2009 at 13:46

Well Pangea ...

An interesting anti-progrock rant from a professed Yes fan. Talk about confusing. Hey, I like all forms of music, I have a substantial collection outside of Prog. As a working musician for a number of years, and an educated one - I don't come to this forum with a lack of expertise. There are brilliant musicians playing in every genre of music (although Rap is questionable). Each of them have carved out their own path, for their own reasons. Do I like ALL Prog? No, not at all. But you brought up Yes. I love Yes. They are a quintessential ProgRock group, and they embody everything I was talking about.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2009 at 12:11
Originally posted by HotToad5 HotToad5 wrote:

There is a theory that Progressive Rock is the "thinking man's" music. Most music does not require much other than a pulse to enjoy. In order to enjoy ProgRock, it is best to have some understanding of music composition. That is why most ProgRock musicians are educated types; they understand musical matters like motifs, counterpoint, harmonies and layered construction. Again, these are musical tools not often found in some forms of music, or just sparsely used. Classical music is probably the closest (in construction) to Progressive Rock, another reason why "thinking" is part of the equation.

Then we have to look at the storytelling aspects of Progressive Rock. Many ProgRock artists are consummate storytellers, and they produce conceptual works. Even non-concept albums by ProgRock artists contain at least a few songs that weave a great personal story, enhanced by intricate musical composition and playing.

All this is just too much for some people who would rather listen to "filler" or shallow lyrics or really only care to hear a particular beat. For Progressive Rock musicians, creating such mindless product would be boring. Not to say it wouldn't be commercially successful, because mindless products often float to the commercial top. But to sacrifice musical integrity to "achieve" such success does not willfully resonate in the mind of the Progressive Rock musician. Don't be dismayed by others believing it's "boring". They have their standards, and their interests, and that's OK. In comparison, you are a member of a much smaller group - but the passion the music stirs within us is worth the exclusivity you enjoy. Embrace it and relish the fact that you are a thinking person.
 

Wow. What a narrow pompous self-important defense of prog rock. So basically everything else is music for dunces, is what you’re saying. This is one of the reasons why people don’t like prog rock. The idea that many prog rock musician carry around with them that they are the only ones doing anything with integrity, that it is the only “thinking man’s” music. Regardless of how many times progrock is mentioned using upper case letters, it still is actually closer to the “over-thinking man’s” music, to be honest. (As for the storytelling angle, like it or not I think folk music has the leg up on just about every other genre because they’ve had to tell a good story, there isn’t a whole lot else is there? Pretty much an acoustic guitar and singer trying to hold a few people’s interest.)

 

 

Any genre (prog in this case) isn’t boring in and of itself. Individual bands can be. And some genres have a preponderance of artists that are boring. Obviously, the manufactured boy bands and their girl counterparts are boring. Hair dresser music is boring (you know, the stuff girl’s hair salons play – Janet Jackson/Mariah Carey/ etc etc). Jazz is f’ing boring. Country sucks, but every once in a while one of those hats comes out with an actual song. Of course they proceed to ruin it with all the hee-haw touches. But who cares? People like what they like.

 

Modern prog can be interesting to watch live because the musicianship is often spectacular, but try listening to it at home . . . . the majority of it is unlistenable, mainly because there are no songs! I’m generalising here, but the majority of today’s prog rock bands haven’t a clue how to write an actual song. That doesn’t mean they have to start writing a 2 minute pop song or be the Ramones or something, but, my god, some of this stuff is just a cacophony of modified scales and riffs thrown together with  ‘clever’ time changes and “layered construction” in an effort to come across as, you know, real deep musicians.

 

My nephew plays in a prog rock band and they are monster musicians, they believe in themselves, they’ve been at it for years now, they practice a lot, they record a lot (they don’t play out a lot, that should tell you something). But a minute into one of their ‘songs’ and I’m already getting bored. Every drum, belltree, cymbal, and gong has been hit in the first ‘song’ or two, interspersed with loads of syncopated heavy choked cymbal stops (why?), syncopated guitar chugging in 11/4 and a dozen notes per second keyboard flurries from one end of the keyboard to the other . . .  all the clichés are in place. But to what end? All that stuff doesn’t support anything! It just lurches from one thing to another, throw in the kitchen sink and give it a title and somehow they think they have a song. It’s a very impressive kitchen sink, mind you, but the plug is missing and it’s empty. Dude, I know you can play the hell out of your instruments, you’ve been doing that in every song, ad nauseum. But it’s like listening to Chopin’s Etudes. Write a f’ing song will ya?!!! And then you can chain them all together with all that complex stuff you’re so good at.

 

They finally got a singer. So what do they do? Do they start writing songs with the singer? No, they just shovel the singer on top of what they already have written, all the music is written beforehand, the singer is an afterthought added for marketing purposes. And after considerable listening on my part to try to find good modern progrock, these guys are as good as most anybody out there, known or unknown. Very few exceptions.

 

Having said all that . . .  that doesn’t make prog invalid or anything. You like what you like. And if you’re into it, you don’t find it boring. But the bands who actually make music worth listening to are few and far between in every genre in my opinion. But so what? So don’t listen. Who knows where it all starts? Does the fact that the “shallow” Monkees was my first concert experience have anything to do with Yes being my favourite band for 40 years now? The spark starts somewhere, don’t discount anything’s worth. If listening to Tangerine Dream “is just too much” for my ‘uneducated’ lady and she puts a Diana Ross & the Supremes disc on, do I go all pompous on her ass or do I get into the cool groove of those great Motown players? Yep – I’ll sacrifice my musical integrity, enjoy the good in the “mindless” product and get the beat going with my lady late into the night. See how your “exclusivity” works for you then.



Edited by Pangaea - August 18 2009 at 12:16
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2009 at 10:25
Nowadays, people got no patience anymore for long duration music or prog.
The world we live in is a world of practice n fast food.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2009 at 09:43
I think a lot of it comes down to investment in the music.  Most people who like prog, when they buy an album it is an emotional investment.  They hope to be able to enjoy that music for a very long time and have it be a part of their life.  Obviously it doesn't always work out that way but that is always the hope.  That we are adding another special album to our collection.  People who go with the popular are buying disposable music.  Here today, gone tomorrow.  They don't feel the emotional tug that we have.  They don't understand it on this level so they dismiss prog as boring or nerdish or whatever.  And they certainly don't have the personality makeup to want to try to make music an important piece of their lives like we do.  They channel elsewhere.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2009 at 09:34
Check out Gentle Giant....Knots
Steve Hackett-Slogans
Univers Zero, Decibel, Art Zoyd use them frequently.
Steve Hillage-Fish Rising
Gong-You Never Blow Yr Trip Forever
Various times prog musicians will fill in gaps, so to speak, with a tri-tone sounding mode. Other times it is felt through an ambient and or atmospheric style for example:The beginning improv of Starless And Bible Black. not the intro to Starless but the instrumental piece. In the end it's what the music will do for you personally. Knowing what a tri-tone is and being able to pick it out in a prog piece is useless information if the piece drives you to the medicine cabinet for excedrin extra strength.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2009 at 02:06
Originally posted by Tengent Tengent wrote:

Originally posted by el dingo el dingo wrote:

Originally posted by DRACCA DRACCA wrote:

Various prog bands apply the usage of Tri-tones. Univers Zero, King Crimson, Art Zoyd, Gentle Giant etc; even Yes on Topographic (The Ancient). These particular tri-tones were forbidden in the 18th century. In my experience, for years, even if the music is at low volume, everyone I have ever met or known has asked me during the performance: Are you normal? or the reaction might just be a stare that defines annoying of the up most degree. Have things change much since the 18th century? Just kidding! If most people can't relate, what can I do? They have the right to feel this way I suppose. so I try to not invade a person's space with prog that is stylistically based on tri-tones. Why should I feel uncomfortable? After all that's not why I bought the cd's.    
 
 
I guess I'm brave enough to admit that while I love most KC stuff, I don't even know what a Tri-tone isEmbarrassedLOL
Fracture, Red, and One More Red Nightmare make use of it. I'm pretty sure it is the same as a diminished fifth. I love diminished fifths..
 
Ah - if you're right I think I know what a Tri-tone is after allBig smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2009 at 19:05
There is a theory that Progressive Rock is the "thinking man's" music. Most music does not require much other than a pulse to enjoy. In order to enjoy ProgRock, it is best to have some understanding of music composition. That is why most ProgRock musicians are educated types; they understand musical matters like motifs, counterpoint, harmonies and layered construction. Again, these are musical tools not often found in some forms of music, or just sparsely used. Classical music is probably the closest (in construction) to Progressive Rock, another reason why "thinking" is part of the equation.

Then we have to look at the storytelling aspects of Progressive Rock. Many ProgRock artists are consummate storytellers, and they produce conceptual works. Even non-concept albums by ProgRock artists contain at least a few songs that weave a great personal story, enhanced by intricate musical composition and playing.

All this is just too much for some people who would rather listen to "filler" or shallow lyrics or really only care to hear a particular beat. For Progressive Rock musicians, creating such mindless product would be boring. Not to say it wouldn't be commercially successful, because mindless products often float to the commercial top. But to sacrifice musical integrity to "achieve" such success does not willfully resonate in the mind of the Progressive Rock musician. Don't be dismayed by others believing it's "boring". They have their standards, and their interests, and that's OK. In comparison, you are a member of a much smaller group - but the passion the music stirs within us is worth the exclusivity you enjoy. Embrace it and relish the fact that you are a thinking person.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2009 at 07:57
Originally posted by valravennz valravennz wrote:

Originally posted by Wizbat Wizbat wrote:

Manuel has it nailed down pretty well, I think that it  may well be music for musicians tho I know of a lot of people that are not musicians but have very musical brains and appreciate prog music and they have the ability to appreciate it.
 


Well said - and perhaps sums up the discussion very well. Not everyone is a musician (although would love to have been one!) and does not understand all the technicalities of music as such. However, this does not prevent the non-musician from appreciating and understanding the nuances of Prog music. Let us remember though - that music is an art form and as prog music is part of this art form, is either appreciated by the listener or not - each to his/her own.



All true. As often said to me by many pop music fans: This sounds like music for a horror film. The song Knots by Gentle Giant is based off that ole Tri-tone thing. Many times people have stopped over my house and heard a snippet or two from Yes....Magnification, Close To The Edge, Going For The One etc; and said they really liked the melody. Not to insult prog fans or pop fans but tri-tone is creepy sounding. I enjoy it and especially in 20th century composers music. Bernard Hermann, Crumb, Bartok etc; however it is simply not for everyone. My point is that certain musical aspects to prog will disturb pop fans more than others.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2009 at 22:36
Originally posted by Wizbat Wizbat wrote:

Manuel has it nailed down pretty well, I think that it  may well be music for musicians tho I know of a lot of people that are not musicians but have very musical brains and appreciate prog music and they have the ability to appreciate it.
 
Well said - and perhaps sums up the discussion very well. Not everyone is a musician (although would love to have been one!) and does not understand all the technicalities of music as such. However, this does not prevent the non-musician from appreciating and understanding the nuances of Prog music. Let us remember though - that music is an art form and as prog music is part of this art form, is either appreciated by the listener or not - each to his/her own.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2009 at 18:22
Manuel has it nailed down pretty well, I think that it  may well be music for musicians tho I know of a lot of people that are not musicians but have very musical brains and appreciate prog music and they have the ability to appreciate it.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2009 at 21:44
In my experiences people I know don't touch prog because the songs are too long. Most of the people I know just can't sit through 20 minutes for just one song and when the think of prog they think of 20 minute songs.
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