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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
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Points: 19740
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Posted: August 08 2017 at 06:26 |
siLLy puPPy wrote:
Exactly. Any kind of music with drums is derived from African rhythms as well. That's why Western classical music which deemphasizes percussion is the most white music ever. |
Sorry but that's bull... Drums & percs have always been part of "white music", though indeed chamber music didn't feature any, but symphonic orchestras came with those huge timbales. May I suggest you listen to medieval music (pre-classical), the one that forked or evolved in folk music.
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic
Joined: October 05 2013
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Posted: August 08 2017 at 07:24 |
Sean Trane wrote:
siLLy puPPy wrote:
Exactly. Any kind of music with drums is derived from African rhythms as well. That's why Western classical music which deemphasizes percussion is the most white music ever. |
Sorry but that's bull... Drums & percs have always been part of "white music", though indeed chamber music didn't feature any, but symphonic orchestras came with those huge timbales. May I suggest you listen to medieval music (pre-classical), the one that forked or evolved in folk music. |
That's why i said "de-emphasized" and not total absence. That's also why i said percussive music DERIVED from African rhythms, not all music. Europeans did NOT invent the drum. While it is known to exist in ancient China and Southern Asia, it is Africa that was the place where it evolved into rhythms which were imported into the European musical lexicon. Western Classical music utilizes percussive bombast significantly less than other popular musical genres such as jazz, rock and even folk for that matter. I've listened to plenty of medieval music. In fact i've taken college courses on it ;)
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 19740
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Posted: August 08 2017 at 09:06 |
siLLy puPPy wrote:
Sean Trane wrote:
siLLy puPPy wrote:
Exactly. Any kind of music with drums is derived from African rhythms as well. That's why Western classical music which deemphasizes percussion is the most white music ever. |
Sorry but that's bull... Drums & percs have always been part of "white music", though indeed chamber music didn't feature any, but symphonic orchestras came with those huge timbales. May I suggest you listen to medieval music (pre-classical), the one that forked or evolved in folk music. |
That's why i said "de-emphasized" and not total absence. That's also why i said percussive music DERIVED from African rhythms, not all music. Europeans did NOT invent the drum. While it is known to exist in ancient China and Southern Asia, it is Africa that was the place where it evolved into rhythms which were imported into the European musical lexicon. Western Classical music utilizes percussive bombast significantly less than other popular musical genres such as jazz, rock and even folk for that matter. I've listened to plenty of medieval music. In fact i've taken college courses on it ;)
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Well, let's go to the proof by the absurd: I assume that if drums are not European-invented, and it's use in music makes it not "white music", than jazz containing piano, contrabass and wind instruments (all invented in Europe) is "white music" Africa's traditional instruments and their type of music was fairly limited: it was percussion and a couple of string instruments.
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic
Joined: October 05 2013
Location: SFcaUsA
Status: Online
Points: 14829
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Posted: August 08 2017 at 09:39 |
Sean Trane wrote:
siLLy puPPy wrote:
Sean Trane wrote:
siLLy puPPy wrote:
Exactly. Any kind of music with drums is derived from African rhythms as well. That's why Western classical music which deemphasizes percussion is the most white music ever. |
Sorry but that's bull... Drums & percs have always been part of "white music", though indeed chamber music didn't feature any, but symphonic orchestras came with those huge timbales. May I suggest you listen to medieval music (pre-classical), the one that forked or evolved in folk music. |
That's why i said "de-emphasized" and not total absence. That's also why i said percussive music DERIVED from African rhythms, not all music. Europeans did NOT invent the drum. While it is known to exist in ancient China and Southern Asia, it is Africa that was the place where it evolved into rhythms which were imported into the European musical lexicon. Western Classical music utilizes percussive bombast significantly less than other popular musical genres such as jazz, rock and even folk for that matter. I've listened to plenty of medieval music. In fact i've taken college courses on it ;)
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Well, let's go to the proof by the absurd: I assume that if drums are not European-invented, and it's use in music makes it not "white music", than jazz containing piano, contrabass and wind instruments (all invented in Europe) is "white music" Africa's traditional instruments and their type of music was fairly limited: it was percussion and a couple of string instruments. |
I get your drift and i agree that the European style definately has evolved the drumming styles apart from Africa. I'm only talking about the percussive rhythms. For the sake of this thread, no need to delve too deeply. We're simply trying to prove that prog rock isn't the "whitest" music. I personally think Western classical is more "white" simply because it evolved apart enough from other influences and remained within the confines of "white" cultures for centuries whereas prog rock and rock in general has influences from all over the world. In fact, the whole point was to employ as many fusion aspects as possible.
Now if we are only talking about the listening audience, then perhaps prog is definately the "whitest" modern day rock music since it removed a great deal of the blues aspects of rock and replaced it with more complex elements. If we want to take the logic even further then it could be deemed the ultimate white male nerd music since it usually attracts more male listeners than female as far as sheer numbers go. Personally i theorize that this has to do with the male brain being more attracted to thinking in abstraction rather than on an emotional plain which more straight forward melodies evoke.
Personally i think we have put more thought into this matter in this short thread than the writer of that article did ![LOL LOL](smileys/smiley36.gif)
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
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Points: 20538
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Posted: August 08 2017 at 10:06 |
Once again, the marginalized banjo is forgotten. Now that's musical bias.
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic
Joined: October 05 2013
Location: SFcaUsA
Status: Online
Points: 14829
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Posted: August 08 2017 at 11:39 |
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Tillerman88
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 31 2015
Location: Tomorrowland
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Points: 495
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Posted: August 08 2017 at 16:26 |
siLLy puPPy wrote:
If we want to take the logic even further then it could be deemed the ultimate white male nerd music since it usually attracts more male listeners than female as far as sheer numbers go. Personally i theorize that this has to do with the male brain being more attracted to thinking in abstraction rather than on an emotional plain which more straight forward melodies evoke. |
Not my intention to deviate from the main subject , but you now referred to an interesting matter on a dead thread....
I think that abstract thinking is much more used in a chess match than in music, perhaps one reason for the lack of female Grand Masters.
However..... on the other hand, it's a well-known fact that men are more 'visual' than women. And it's also a well-known fact that the perception of aesthetic content through hearing differs in fundamental ways from the perception of aesthetic content through vision, especially in the case of visual arts that make use of representation.
And particularly on that aesthetic sensibility, I think classical music is the most powerful genre for engaging our aesthetic sensibility without also engaging the cognition of objects. Hence, by its inherent complex ways, (IMO) Classical Music links our sensibility to a wider range of feelings, moods, emotions, inner experiences......
That's my point, possibly a reason for the much bigger female audience (as well as female performers and composers) in the Classical milieu........
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Polymorphia
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 06 2012
Location: here
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Points: 8856
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Posted: August 08 2017 at 17:16 |
It originated in Europe and was primarily loved by Europeans. It thus contains European cultural and stylistic sensibilities, particularly classical music. Nobody is surprised by this information, nor is anybody surprised at people calling prog "white" in 2017.
Due to segregation and marketing to racial demographics, African-American music has its own trajectory in the late-60s/70s: Funk, Jazz Fusion, Disco, Post-bop, Jazz Funk, etc. (Even after the Civil Rights act, they still lived in different neighborhoods). Both this trajectory, and the prog/punk*/heavy metal trajectory had influence on each other, but were still considered a part of their respective movements. So yeah, you're not going to find a whole lot of black prog artists. It's not really the fault of the genre itself? Though pieces like this may be prompted by an annoyance towards the perceived elitist rhetoric of prog fans, which absolutely exists, but is a bit overstated by other music nerds.
*Despite some famous punk bands like Death and Bad Brains, it was still mostly white folks.
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M27Barney
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 09 2006
Location: Swinton M27
Status: Offline
Points: 3136
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Posted: August 09 2017 at 00:13 |
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 19740
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Posted: August 09 2017 at 03:15 |
siLLy puPPy wrote:
I get your drift and i agree that the European style definately has evolved the drumming styles apart from Africa. I'm only talking about the percussive rhythms. For the sake of this thread, no need to delve too deeply. We're simply trying to prove that prog rock isn't the "whitest" music. I personally think Western classical is more "white" simply because it evolved apart enough from other influences and remained within the confines of "white" cultures for centuries whereas prog rock and rock in general has influences from all over the world. In fact, the whole point was to employ as many fusion aspects as possible.
Now if we are only talking about the listening audience, then perhaps prog is definately the "whitest" modern day rock music since it removed a great deal of the blues aspects of rock and replaced it with more complex elements (so did metal music, but I suspect metalheads won't feel as stung by the term whitest music) . If we want to take the logic even further then it could be deemed the ultimate white male nerd music since it usually attracts more male listeners than female as far as sheer numbers go. Personally i theorize that this has to do with the male brain being more attracted to thinking in abstraction rather than on an emotional plain which more straight forward melodies evoke.
Personally i think we have put more thought into this matter in this short thread than the writer of that article did ![LOL LOL](smileys/smiley36.gif) |
I'm sure the article met its goal: get us riled up ![Angry Angry](smileys/smiley7.gif) ![LOL LOL](smileys/smiley36.gif) there was probably no other goal ![Wink Wink](smileys/smiley2.gif) , except maybe speak of Weiler's book. Oddly enough, if you go to see today's Nu-jazz black artistes' concerts (Kamasi Washington, Shabaka Hutchings, etc...), you'll spot nearly zero black people in the audience. It musty be "white music" according to the article's author.
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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Posted: August 09 2017 at 03:49 |
Sorry, I'm missing something...what has the ethnicity of musicians have to do with anything? Are we now to judge a genres worth by the ethnicity of the musicians.
When I listen to music I hear the notes. It could be played by extra terrestrials, and I wouldn't give a f**k I either like what I hear or don't.
Perhaps this hack would like Yes if Chris Squire had been from Nigeria.
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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M27Barney
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 09 2006
Location: Swinton M27
Status: Offline
Points: 3136
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Posted: August 09 2017 at 04:39 |
Blacksword wrote:
Sorry, I'm missing something...what has the ethnicity of musicians have to do with anything? Are we now to judge a genres worth by the ethnicity of the musicians.
When I listen to music I hear the notes. It could be played by extra terrestrials, and I wouldn't give a f**k I either like what I hear or don't.
Perhaps this hack would like Yes if Chris Squire had been from Nigeria. |
Since homo-sapiens evolved and migrated from the rift-valley in Africa - Yes is definitely MOBO as is all music - if you take the origin back far enough!
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic
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Posted: August 09 2017 at 10:17 |
@Sean Trane ^ Yeah, the metalhead thing struck me as a very white music as well, however i can name a few black metal bands (Living Color, Fishbone, 24/7 Spyz plus bands like Suffocation that had black members) and cannot think of very many all black prog bands.
Yeah, the article is designed to get everyone riled up. Personally i don't let anyone else's opinions about musical preferences affect me. Yeah, it's a white music. I have seen a general pattern in music history at least in the 20th century. Blacks usually create a new musical form from seemingly nothing but their souls such as ragtime, jazz, blues, rock, funk and then whites take those ideas and run away with sophistication. Therefore jazz became jazz-fusion, rock became metal, prog, punk and Buckethead :P Whites also crreated computer science, rocket science and spam. It's a mixed bag but i think prog is one of whitey's greatest achievements ![LOL LOL](smileys/smiley36.gif)
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ForestFriend
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 23 2017
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 680
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Posted: August 09 2017 at 13:34 |
In all fairness, he only mentions skin colour only twice, and one mention is in direct response to a quote about how The Nice are European and not American Negros - so it's fairly relevant.
Other than that, he does make some fair points about what he doesn't like about the music itself - but it does sound like he's missing the point of the music and expecting it to be something it's not. Like I said earlier, criticizing Knots for not having a catchy melody is like criticizing a vegetarian restaurant for not serving meat.
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axeman
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Joined: March 13 2008
Location: Michigan, US
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Points: 235
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Posted: August 09 2017 at 14:45 |
The most negligible commentary ever.
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-John
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Dellinger
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VIP Member
Joined: June 18 2009
Location: Mexico
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Points: 12625
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Posted: August 09 2017 at 21:21 |
ForestFriend wrote:
In all fairness, he only mentions skin colour only twice, and one mention is in direct response to a quote about how The Nice are European and not American Negros - so it's fairly relevant.
Other than that, he does make some fair points about what he doesn't like about the music itself - but it does sound like he's missing the point of the music and expecting it to be something it's not. Like I said earlier, criticizing Knots for not having a catchy melody is like criticizing a vegetarian restaurant for not serving meat.
| Yeah, but the title of the article is "The Whitest music...", so that makes the statement more relevant.
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Tom Ozric
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2005
Location: Olympus Mons
Status: Offline
Points: 15916
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Posted: August 09 2017 at 21:48 |
None of you, for the life of me (whatever's left) have bothered with OSIBISA. Try their first 3 or 4 albums, they are amazing. To me, they cross Santana with early Proto-Prog and add some West-African cultural nfluences. At least, on the first 4 tremendous albums. After that, it's hit and miss, but mostly strong material. I don't believe it's 'just white music'. I've never been racist, just anti-religion......
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic
Joined: October 05 2013
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Posted: August 09 2017 at 22:07 |
I believe Demon Fuzz was another African prog band although more in a proto-prog fashion in 1970
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ForestFriend
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 23 2017
Location: Canada
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Posted: August 10 2017 at 00:11 |
Dellinger wrote:
ForestFriend wrote:
In all fairness, he only mentions skin colour only twice, and one mention is in direct response to a quote about how The Nice are European and not American Negros - so it's fairly relevant.
Other than that, he does make some fair points about what he doesn't like about the music itself - but it does sound like he's missing the point of the music and expecting it to be something it's not. Like I said earlier, criticizing Knots for not having a catchy melody is like criticizing a vegetarian restaurant for not serving meat.
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Yeah, but the title of the article is "The Whitest music...", so that makes the statement more relevant. |
True, but I think the title was just chosen to stir up some controversy and attract attention (which has worked marvelously!) rather than act as the main thesis of the article.
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 19740
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Posted: August 10 2017 at 02:09 |
siLLy puPPy wrote:
@Sean Trane ^Yeah, the metalhead thing struck me as a very white music as well, however i can name a few black metal bands (Living Color, Fishbone, 24/7 Spyz plus bands like Suffocation that had black members) and cannot think of very many all black prog bands. |
I remember a member here (DallasBrian, if memory serves) that called this site almost racist because we didn't have "race music" entries in our DB. indeed, pure prog all-black bands are not numerous. Granted that, at the time, many bands like Osibisa, Mandrill, War, Demon Fuzz and many of the multi-racial JR/F had yet to be inducted in our DB. In some ways, because of our site's entire discography policy, we'd hesitated a long time before including Miles. Once he was in, the floodgates had been opened
siLLy puppy wrote:
Yeah, the article is designed to get everyone riled up. Personally i don't let anyone else's opinions about musical preferences affect me. Yeah, it's a white music. I have seen a general pattern in music history at least in the 20th century. Blacks usually create a new musical form from seemingly nothing but their souls such as ragtime, jazz, blues, rock, funk and then whites take those ideas and run away with sophistication. Therefore jazz became jazz-fusion, rock became metal, prog, punk and Buckethead :P Whites also created computer science, rocket science and spam. It's a mixed bag but i think prog is one of whitey's greatest achievements ![LOL LOL](smileys/smiley36.gif) |
according to Gill Scott Heron, Whitey's greatest achievement is being on the moon ![](uploads/325/lmao.gif)
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