Is Santana prog? - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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Bilek

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Posted: October 27 2006 at 05:07

Trying to reconcile:

I agree with my teammate on one point: Santana's style is not Psychdelic "Progressive" Rock. It may have been based on the first Psychedelia movement (as the first 3 albums also indicate), but if we happen to accept every West Coast band as Psychedelic Prog, we end up admitting more than half of the proto-prog bands in psychedlic Space rock genre! (besides, there's nothing "spacy" in any of the West Coast bands' music!!!!)

On the other hand, Santana would not fit into proto-prog, either, for 2 reasons:

1- They clearly did not contribute to the evolution of prog in early stages (unlike Beatles, Procol Harum, and The Nice, etc.)

2- Prog movement is said to have started with KC's debut album, in 1969. That's when Sanatana also released their debut, so they don't fit timewise...

I happen to agree with Sean Trane in this respect, though Santana emerged from Psychedelic movement, from Caravansarai onwards they changed direction to straightforward Jazz Rock (of course, with a plenty of ethnic elements). Look at the albums he listed, just from the '70's, for heaven's sake. And note the guest musicians / collaborations in the albums! John McLaughlin himself guests on Welcome, not to mention Love Devotion Surrender (where half of Mah. Orc. members, along with half-Santana band played). I should also mention these two albums: Live with Buddy Miles, and Illuminations witgh Alice Coltrane! Now, who can deny the Jazz-Rock connectioin!?!?!?

I personally believe Jazz-Rock/Fusion is the logical place for Santana. Sean Trane did a brilliant job adding them there...

Also, I think Carlos Santana's solo and collab works must be added to the same place, which will reinforce the Jazz-Rock connection (there's no need to open up another entry...)

Listen to Turkish psych/prog; you won't regret:
Baris Manco,Erkin Koray,Cem Karaca,Mogollar,3 Hürel,Selda,Edip Akbayram,Fikret Kizilok,Ersen (and Dadaslar) (but stick with the '70's, and 'early 80's!)

Bilek

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Posted: October 27 2006 at 05:14

Sean Trane wrote:

Santana (both the group and the solo artiste) is full-blown jazz-rock all I will only speak of his 70's album. One can still argue that Santana's early 80's albums (Marathon, Zebop, Shango) are still jazz-rock enough to be prog related.

Full jazz rock album from the group:

Caravanserai, Borboletta, Welcome >>> 3

Partially jazz rock albums from the group;

Abraxas, 3, Festival, Amigos, Moonflower, Inner Sectrets >>> 6

Full jazz rock album from Carlos Santana (solo):

Love Devotion Surrender, Illuminations (both these two are axed on john Coltrane), Oneness and Swing of Delights >>> 4

I dare say 13 albums are jazz-rock just for the 70's. I do not think there is one single classic prog UK group that can beat that in one decade.

I rest my case!!!

I have nothing to add!! Brilliant work. I only felt that some pieces must have been highlighted

...

One should not overlook the John McLaughlin contribution in both Welcome, and Love Devotion Surrender. Both men were disciples of Guru Sri Chimnoy (apparently along with Alice Coltrane), which makes an obvious connection between the artists' musical styles.

Sean Trane View Drop Down

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Posted: October 27 2006 at 08:46

Bilek wrote:

I have nothing to add!! Brilliant work. I only felt that some pieces must have been highlighted

...

thanks for the support Bilek!!

(the enveloppe with the unmarkedbills is where we convenned)

Caravanserai
(1972)

Borboletta
(1974)

Carlos Santana And John McLaughlin – Love Devotion And Surrender
(1973)

Carlos Santana And Alice Coltrane - Illuminations
(1974)

and these two are full blown jazz rock as well:

Carlos Santana - Oneness, Silver Dreams - Golden Reality album review, Mp3, track listing

Oneness, Silver Dreams - Golden Reality
(Studio Album, 1979)
4.00

Carlos Santana - Swing of Delight album review, Mp3, track listing

Swing of Delight
(Studio Album, 1980)
4.00

and this is only for the 70's.

Edited by Sean Trane - October 27 2006 at 08:46

let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword

Bilek

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Posted: October 27 2006 at 09:12

I was in favor of merging Carlos' solo career with that of Santana (after all, the style is more or less the same; and same players are playing every now and then) but another entry will not kill me...

btw, isn't Love Devotion and Surrender also included in JMc Laughlin's discography? That makes a double entry. Someone needs to check it out...

Nice work, Hugues. You single-handedly managed all Santana related works (including reviews!)...

I guess I need to check out post '76 works now (my mp3 disc includes up to '76...)

Sean Trane View Drop Down

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Posted: October 27 2006 at 09:27

Bilek wrote:

I was in favor of merging Carlos' solo career with that of Santana (after all, the style is more or less the same; and same players are playing every now and then) but another entry will not kill me...

btw, isn't Love Devotion and Surrender also included in JMc Laughlin's discography? That makes a double entry. Someone needs to check it out...

Nice work, Hugues. You single-handedly managed all Santana related works (including reviews!)...

I guess I need to check out post '76 works now (my mp3 disc includes up to '76...)

Re LDS: I posted this thread so far no reaction

(Oneness is also in twice as someone included it)

The reason why I chose to enter his solo career separately is mostly that his collab albums (Miles, Coltrane, McLaughlin and Brothers) were difficult to enter without changing the entry name.

As for the whole works, I've been on this for six weeks with the 70's albums on regular rotations for the same period, so those reviews are not winged on the spot >> the only one I skipped is Festival and the live Lotus. I will attack some 80's (group and solo) records in the next weeks (have started already)>> I am much less familiar with those.

let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword

oliverstoned View Drop Down

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Posted: October 27 2006 at 09:33

Don't forget "Illuminations" with alice Coltrane (1974).

Edited by oliverstoned - October 27 2006 at 09:33

DallasBryan View Drop Down

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Posted: October 27 2006 at 10:23

of course, but he's not English Prog!

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: October 27 2006 at 11:22

Eetu Pellonpää wrote:

So now the voters are wrong? I think that would be a quite arrogant statement. I’m sure that you only want to see the situation in this way in order to maintain your own viewpoints.

Please Eetu don't put words in my mouth:

I never said all the voters are wrong, but if you read the posts, a lot admit that are not familiar with Sanatana's work, some say they dobn't know and others compare him with Menudo, so it's logical to believe that the polls here don't reflect anything but personal opinions.

Your quotations of the sources only proved that his early records are part of the San Francisco movement. This won't qualify as psychedelic progressive rock, but proto prog (third time telling this in this post).

So, he merged from the San Francisco Psychedelia and they are not Psychedelic artists? Well, probably not Psychedelic Prog, but Psychedelic in a wide sense they are, that's my whole point.

So now you admit yourself that his music is not 100% prog?

No Eetu, I accepted this from my first post here, I don't use to change my opinions according to the circumstances:

1.- I posted October 25 even before you joined this thread:

I'm not sure if he's Prog Rock and as a fact don't believe it but he's a Psyche artist, he blended Rock with Jazz and Latin influences and is at least Proto Prog.

2.- Then I posted October 26 in the morning before you replied me:

Now, I believe it's a terrible mistake to have him in Jazz Rock/Fusion, the band is essentially Psychedelic and most surely Proto Prog, probably related to Folk due to the Latin roots but he's lost in Fusion.

3.- Then I wrote also yesterday and also before you even replied me you won't accept him (Something I understand):

And no, Santana is a West Coast artist rooted in the middle of USA Psychedelia, he is one of the most representative musicians of the San Francisco Psychedelia

So Eetu, it's not NOW that I accept he's not a full Progressive Rock artist, I've been saying this since the thread started and even beforre you joined it.

I'm not trying to make anybody happy, what I'm trying to do is to make & keep "Psychedelic / Space rock" genre to a shape fitting the criteria defined to it. As you start pushing your favorite artist to that genre with arguments I see as false, and I can point that out logically, are you suggesting that I should not do so? I will, I promise you. I described earlier the arguments why they do not fit as psychedelic prog genre, please re-read them if in doubt.

Eetu, I didn't added him, I'm happy Sean did but if you know about our work with Symphonic Team you will notioce that we never tried to make everybody happy, we tried to do what we believed it's the correct thing despite how unpopular it would be, we took Gentle Giant, King Crimson, Barclay James Harvest and VDGG out of Symphonic despite we knew this would be unpopular.

We hadthe luck most of the Collaborators agreed with us.

Call it Proto Prog or whatever, but SANTANA emerged from the Psyche San Francisco scenario, he's included in EVERY Psychedelic database as one of te most representative artists, his jamming and soloing is absolutely characteristic of this mvement.

I agree with you he's not Psychedelic Progressive Rock artist, never doubted and never will but I can't change history.

I'm sure you're ging to do a great job with Psyche/Space Prog according to your beliefs but again being always deffensive is not healthy, musical terms as Psychedelia are not 100% accurate, there's a margin for disagreements and differences, stay with your honest understanding, that's what I try to do but listen other members opinions with patience.

If they move Santaa as Prog Related I would feel much more comfortable, i'm not asking to keep him as a 100% Prog artist because it's obvious he isn't but I don't believe he's a Jazz Fusion artist in the vein of Mahavishnu, Jean Luc Ponty or Return to Forever.

Iván

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Posted: October 27 2006 at 11:34

Yes. Not exist only a Symphonic or Psychedelic or Canterbury or Krautrock or Zehul or art Rock in 70's...

Exist also Latin Jazz Prog... And the king is Santana!!!

DallasBryan View Drop Down

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Posted: October 27 2006 at 11:49

I agree PROG RELATED, and very influencial!

Dick Heath View Drop Down

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Posted: October 27 2006 at 12:04

Wasn't Carlos Santana's first recording on that sprawling double set Live Adventures of Al Kooper & Mike Bloomfield - playing some blues?

Eetu Pellonpaa View Drop Down

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Posted: November 02 2006 at 15:11

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

I agree with you he's not Psychedelic Progressive Rock artist, never doubted and never will but I can't change history.

This is the only reason I don't want them to our genre which has only psychedelic progressive rock artists in it.

Peter

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Posted: November 03 2006 at 00:50

I don't know & I don't care.

"Prog" is almost entirely subjective, and every such addition here makes the term mean more, and less. All of these overlapping, non-intuitive "categories" are confusing, ever contentious, and frankly ridiculous, IMO. Too many people here like to pigeonhole and analyze art to death! Dead

Make up your own mind on these things (if it matters so much to you), because you'll never get a consensus.

Edited by Peter Rideout - November 03 2006 at 00:57

"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.

Cristi

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Posted: November 03 2006 at 04:38

Santana is prog or at least it used to be. Starting with 1999, Santana went poppy commercial

, collaborating with mainstream singers. Shame...

jalas

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Posted: November 03 2006 at 14:34

of course he is. If Hawkwind can be considered prog, than anybody can be prog.

Poll Question: Do you think Santana is a progressive band?
Poll Choice	Votes	Poll Statistics
Yes	33	[32.04%]
No	70	[67.96%]
This topic is closed, no new votes accepted