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Slartibartfast 
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29625
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 Posted: July 21 2008 at 13:40 |
 Treasure wrote:
lol punk killing prog
Does anyone here own Robert Fripp's solo album, Exposure?
Listen to that and tell me prog and punk hate each other. |
See also the League of Gentlemen albums.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: July 21 2008 at 14:33 |
mithrandir wrote:
might I remind you that Punk, even in its prototype form always had a freewheeling experimental element present, dating back to MC5, Velvets, Stooges and its garage/psych roots, and bands such as Suicide, Pere Ubu, Electric Eels, Television, Debris, etc, --none of which are "Pure Punk" as you might say,--all predate the so called 77 British Punk movement you seem to champion as "thee only true form of punk"
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Nah, you won't convince me, for me real Punk died almost as soon as it appeared. and turned into a hybrid form in a short term.
The early forms of Punk (Which are not Punk really) had a different set of values, doctrine and aesthetics than Punk, one lead to the other......yes, one influenced the other........yes, but they are not the same: as proto Prog is not Prog.
We should agree to disagree.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 21 2008 at 15:52
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peskypesky
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 25 2005
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 359
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Posted: July 21 2008 at 15:33 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Nah, you won't convince me, for me real Punk died almost assoomn as it appeared and hybrid forms in a short term.
The early forms of Punk (Which are not Punk) had a different set of values, doctrine and aesthetics than Punk, one lead to the other, yes, one influenced the other, yes, but they are not the same as proto Prog is not Prog. |
Does this make sense to anyone?
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Prog fan since 1974.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: July 21 2008 at 15:46 |
Yes Peskypesky, I made some typos due to the early hour, so I corrected them, but just in case:
mithrandir wrote:
might I remind you that Punk, even in its prototype form always had a freewheeling experimental element present, dating back to MC5, Velvets, Stooges and its garage/psych roots, and bands such as Suicide, Pere Ubu, Electric Eels, Television, Debris, etc, --none of which are "Pure Punk" as you might say,--all predate the so called 77 British Punk movement you seem to champion as "thee only true form of punk"
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Nah, you won't convince me, for me real Punk died almost as soon as it appeared. and turned into an hybrid form in a short term.
The early forms of Punk (Which are not Punk really) had a different set of values, doctrine and aesthetics than Punk, one lead to the other......yes, one influenced the other........yes, but they are not the same: as proto Prog is not Prog.
We should agree to disagree.
Iván |
Now if you need further explanation.....get a translator
I may have problems with a language that is not mine, but I don't have problems thinking.
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 21 2008 at 15:57
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dzx
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 23 2008
Location: france
Status: Offline
Points: 117
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Posted: July 21 2008 at 16:30 |
Treasure wrote:
lol punk killing prog
Does anyone here own Robert Fripp's solo album, Exposure?
Listen to that and tell me prog and punk hate each other. |
Exactly 
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was that just an Am augmented minor 9th i heard? nice!
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dzx
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 23 2008
Location: france
Status: Offline
Points: 117
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Posted: July 21 2008 at 16:48 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Yes Peskypesky, I made some typos due to the early hour, so I corrected them, but just in case:
mithrandir wrote:
might I remind you that Punk, even in its prototype form always had a freewheeling experimental element present, dating back to MC5, Velvets, Stooges and its garage/psych roots, and bands such as Suicide, Pere Ubu, Electric Eels, Television, Debris, etc, --none of which are "Pure Punk" as you might say,--all predate the so called 77 British Punk movement you seem to champion as "thee only true form of punk"
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Nah, you won't convince me, for me real Punk died almost as soon as it appeared. and turned into an hybrid form in a short term.
The early forms of Punk (Which are not Punk really) had a different set of values, doctrine and aesthetics than Punk, one lead to the other......yes, one influenced the other........yes, but they are not the same: as proto Prog is not Prog.
We should agree to disagree.
Iván |
Now if you need further explanation.....get a translator
I may have problems with a language that is not mine, but I don't have problems thinking.
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So you just sl*g off anyone who disagrees with you
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was that just an Am augmented minor 9th i heard? nice!
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peskypesky
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 25 2005
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 359
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Posted: July 21 2008 at 16:54 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Yes Peskypesky, I made some typos due to the early hour, so I corrected them, but just in case...Now if you need further explanation.....get a translator
I may have problems with a language that is not mine, but I don't have problems thinking.
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But what point are you trying to make?
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Prog fan since 1974.
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Garion81
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2004
Location: So Cal, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4338
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Posted: July 21 2008 at 17:31 |
The large record companies stopped signing prog bands about 1974 with a few exceptions. Any style of music or any other form of pop culture needs to have new blood to keep it going. People were still supporting the bands that still were making music. Maybe not to the extent of the peak years 1973-6 but still Yes, Genesis, ELP and Kansas were selling out bigger arenas in the late 70's. UK on the very first tour sold out the Forum (see LA Lakers).
Punk Disco or anything else did not kill prog.
The music started changing.
If bands wanted to stay signed and making money they got simpler. The day of the artist controlling the company was over until today when most non big label artists have complete control over what they do.
Edited by Garion81 - July 21 2008 at 17:32
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 "What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?"
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: July 21 2008 at 18:37 |
peskypesky wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Yes Peskypesky, I made some typos due to the early hour, so I corrected them, but just in case...Now if you need further explanation.....get a translator
I may have problems with a language that is not mine, but I don't have problems thinking.
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But what point are you trying to make? |
In this case that i made a couple of typos, but not as you OBVIOUSLY tried to imply for lack of coherence or arguments.
When a person makes a mistake clearly for diferent reasons than ignorance, specially after having a fluid debate with other persons, you don't rub it in his face trying to make fun of this person.
I now my reply is not kind, but aggressive or offensive posts deserve an offenssive or aggressive reply.
As simple as that
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 21 2008 at 19:59
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peskypesky
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 25 2005
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 359
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Posted: July 21 2008 at 21:42 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
[When a person makes a mistake clearly for diferent reasons than ignorance, specially after having a fluid debate with other persons, you don't rub it in his face trying to make fun of this person.
I now my reply is not kind, but aggressive or offensive posts deserve an offenssive or aggressive reply.
As simple as that
Iván
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Prog fan since 1974.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: July 21 2008 at 21:46 |
Bravo for your smiley, that makes my point.
Iván
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
Status: Offline
Points: 16715
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Posted: July 21 2008 at 21:56 |
mithrandir wrote:
seems like a variation on this same topic pops up about once every 2 weeks here, what's the obsession folks? |
We need to justify nobody else having heard of/enjoying this brilliant music, so we invent this persecution complex.
peskypesky wrote:
That's why to this day, 30 years later, it's still considered sort of dorky to be into prog. |
It was always dorky, and the pictures in your sig make that very clear.
But the reality, at least that I've seen, is that we are the only ones who actually care what other people listen to.
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: July 21 2008 at 21:58 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
The main reason of their existence was to simplify music to the extreme,so if you take the over simplification, the anarchism, the purity of Rock in the most essential aspect, the lack of blending....Then you keep nothing of Punk.
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You're treating punk music as ethos-based, whereas Prog music seems to be evenly style and ethos-based. Cannot Punk be the same? They're two opposite extremes.
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: July 21 2008 at 22:03 |
Henry Plainview wrote:
mithrandir wrote:
seems like a variation on this same topic pops up about once every 2 weeks here, what's the obsession folks? |
We need to justify nobody else having heard of/enjoying this brilliant music, so we invent this persecution complex.
peskypesky wrote:
That's why to this day, 30 years later, it's still considered sort of dorky to be into prog. |
It was always dorky, and the pictures in your sig make that very clear.
But the reality, at least that I've seen, is that we are the only ones who actually care what other people listen to. |
Nah, people want to covert people to other types of music all the time, it's the people who really really care about the genres that try to do it.
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peskypesky
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 25 2005
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 359
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Posted: July 21 2008 at 22:10 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Bravo for your smiley, that makes my point.
Iván |
You had a point? 
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Prog fan since 1974.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: July 21 2008 at 22:56 |
stonebeard wrote:
You're treating punk music as ethos-based, whereas Prog music seems to be evenly style and ethos-based. Cannot Punk be the same? They're two opposite extremes.
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I don't believe Punk is purely ethos-based, the cultural component is only one of them, they have a stylistic component of course, but Punk was surrounded by a pseudo philosophy and the idea that everybody else was guilty of the destruction of Rock identity..
Prog was born wider, accepted blending of cultures, influences, Punk was born more restrictive, even from their Garage - MOD roots, or you were MOD or you were against them, you even had to dress like them.
There was a fashion, a philosophy around Punk, something that really wasn't as important in Prog, in the 80's you saw a hard punk and you could identify him, something that didn't happened in Prog, not even in the 70's.
But this is secondary in the thread Stonebeard, I believe the stylistic identity was lost, but that's my pont of view.
Iván
Of course it's better to ignore the previous post.
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 21 2008 at 23:12
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peskypesky
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 25 2005
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 359
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Posted: July 22 2008 at 00:51 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
stonebeard wrote:
You're treating punk music as ethos-based, whereas Prog music seems to be evenly style and ethos-based. Cannot Punk be the same? They're two opposite extremes. |
I don't believe Punk is purely ethos-based, the cultural component is only one of them, they have a stylistic component of course, but Punk was surrounded by a pseudo philosophy and the idea that everybody else was guilty of the destruction of Rock identity..
Prog was born wider, accepted blending of cultures, influences, Punk was born more restrictive, even from their Garage - MOD roots, or you were MOD or you were against them, you even had to dress like them.
There was a fashion, a philosophy around Punk, something that really wasn't as important in Prog, in the 80's you saw a hard punk and you could identify him, something that didn't happened in Prog, not even in the 70's.
But this is secondary in the thread Stonebeard, I believe the stylistic identity was lost, but that's my pont of view.
Iván
Of course it's better to ignore the previous post. |
If fashion wasn't important in prog, please explain the images in our signatures. I really doubt that Genesis & Yes just found those clothing items at Sears.
Edited by peskypesky - July 22 2008 at 00:52
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Prog fan since 1974.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: July 22 2008 at 01:33 |
peskypesky wrote:
If fashion wasn't important in prog, please explain the images in our signatures. I really doubt that Genesis & Yes just found those clothing items at Sears.
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Now you are lost again, the fact that for example PETER GABRIEL used COSTUMES in Genesis, doesn't make it afashion, or did you ever saw somebody dressing as a flower in the streets?
Genesis and Yes used those COSTUMES for PERFORMING.
The clothing that used Yes was mostly a costume also, those capes of Chris Squire or Rick Wakeman, were not very popular in the streets, now Steve Howe and Jon Anderson dressed as Hippies, not as Proggers, if you don't know the difference between a costume and a fashion, well.....
And yes, probably Genesis members found their clothes in Sears:
As you see, they are regular guys dressing as any regular young man would had dressed in those days, except Peter who is using a COSTUME!
If you don't get it yet, I'll make it easy:
This is a costume.
While:
And this:
IS PUNK FASHION!!
Now you got it?
It's easy if you try.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 22 2008 at 01:37
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The T
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Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
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Points: 17493
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Posted: July 22 2008 at 02:56 |
^A masterpiece of an reply 
Damn I still don't get why some people are devoting 30923 pages to basically say "we like punk and prog is dead".... Now punk killed prog? Again, this website is full of necrophiliacs then... How morbid we are... we not only see dead people.. we love dead music!.... And then we criticize ourselves for liking it!!!! And of course, those close-minded musical bogots that think is actually PUNK the one's that dead... oh... how close minded....
I, for one, I'm happy with my very much alive prog... and happy with the fact that the only punk that you can buy in mainstream stores is emo-pop-punk, as opposed to prog which you can still find, at least bands like TMV or The Flower Kings or Spock's Beard... now when a major retail chain carries one but not the other, it basically tells you: commercially, one is DEAD, the other one may not be next to Mariah Carey in sales but there are still people that buy it that don't have to come from the deepest undergrounds in London....
And if punk is alive in the underground, good for those who love it! But please, either declare yourself a lover of dead creatures or recognize that prog is so alive that commercially succesful bands start to make "proggier" music (read: Coheed and Cambria, for example)...
Damn, even MTV emo-punk bands are trying to "wise up" their music like Panic at the Disco! (which I don't like by the way) whose latest album is halfway Sgt. pepperi-ish or My Chemical Romance whose latest album is a mix of queen and pink floyd....
Who is the dead one here?
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Hootywho
Forum Groupie
Joined: May 23 2008
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 50
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Posted: July 22 2008 at 04:08 |
Your Lame Sister wrote:
Prog was bound to kill itself anyway, punk just helped it. when prog bands started releasing crap like 'Tales From Topographic Oceans' and 'Wind & Wuthering', they were practically sealing their own fate. |
Are you out of your mind? both of those are amazing prog albums, and no, prog would NOT kill itself.
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/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
So punk killed the prog did it ?
