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Alberto Muñoz View Drop Down
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Points: 3577 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2009 at 10:02
Originally posted by fuxi fuxi wrote:

Here comes the bishop, all dressed up
he's got eyes in the back of his head
One wave of his funny old stick -
there's a band of light across your eyes!

I'm sorry people, but as far as lyrics go, this is plain terrible. The story is set early in the 18th century, isn't it? My grasp of Scottish history is not that strong, but one thing I DO know is that, in those days, no-one would have spoken of a bishop's "funny old stick"...

As for ONE FOR THE VINE, it's got a delightful main melody (although I'm always put off by the rattling percussion during that instrumental bit in the middle) but, once again, the lyrics are amateurish. The point of view keeps changing from the third person singular to the first, and back again - makes me wanna shout to Phil: Come on man, MAKE UP YOUR MIND.

But it must be added that such lyrics are by no means as awful as Jon Anderson's hippy-dippiest moments.
 
Hey Fuxi you have to read more about Genesis, the song was composed by Tony Banks, not Phil.
LOLLOLLOL
And BTW they are  professional musicians not professional writers.




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Alberto Muñoz View Drop Down
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Points: 3577 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2009 at 10:15
Originally posted by ~Rael~ ~Rael~ wrote:


Maybe as  Primus song. Probably works better as a song, or some bizzare grammatical exercise.

And I am really surprised people were saying Genesis's "Wind and Wuthering" (an excellent title, it does mean something) song lyrics are bad. They are some of the best, in my opinion, even "All In a Mouse's Night." Sure, its goofy, but I still find it clever.

Please explain why the lyrics of "The Eleventh Earl of Mar" are so bad, because I find them very good, way above the norm.

And, to me, "Blood on the Rooftops" is one of the lamer songs on the album, though still good. The best, by far, is "One for the Vine," a song I put in my top ten, musically and lyrically.

And "Blood on the Rooftops
 
Genesis W & W is based loosey on the a novel called Wuthering Heights written by the late novelist Emily Bronté, most of the album is a Genesis interpretation of that novel, except Blood on the Rooftops that is a Hackett composition.
 
If you haven't read the nook here's a summary that ilustrates most of the titles:
 
The Eleven Earl on Mar is base on

While the eleventh (by some counts) holder of the title, Isabel Douglas count on Mar, was alone at the Kildrummy Castle, Alexander Stewart entered it and forced her to sign a charter on August 12, 1404 yielding the earldom to him and his heirs. She revoked the charter later that year, but on marrying him, she gave him the earldom for life with remainder to her heirs. The King confirmed her last action the next year.

 
As we can see Genesis Lyrics is always funded in old britannia.
 




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Alberto Muñoz View Drop Down
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Points: 3577 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2009 at 10:23
Originally posted by fuxi fuxi wrote:


Nothing wrong with fantastic themes as such. For example, I thoroughly enjoy "Broadway Melody of 1974" or "Dancing with the Moonlit Knight". It's nonsense, but DELIGHTFUL nonsense, thanks to Peter Gabriel's wit.
 
Why are you saying that Dancing with the Moonlit Knight is nonsense??, really you have to read more, if you read the lyrics careful it is not at nonsense, unless you think that Mythology is nonsense: hope that these links ilustratres you
 
 BTW did you know why the Title album is Selling England By The Pound is?
 
I will give you a clue : Britain in the early 70's Labor Party.
 
i think that if you critic the lyrics by the way they write mabye it's a fair opinion based at they maybe haven't a professional training as writers, but let me tell you that their lyrics are always very deep in very interesting themes.
 


Edited by Alberto Muñoz - February 26 2009 at 10:31




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Points: 2459 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2009 at 11:21
Rael -

1. Poetry has followed "rules" since the days of Homer and the epic of Gilgamesh.

2. The lyrics of ONE FOR THE VINE may seem poetical, but they are definitely not "poetry". No poet would write anything as awful as "terror filled their minds with awe". (You can believe me, translating poetry - and prose - is my job.) But I'll grant you this: the way Phil Collins sings certain lines (e.g. "This is he / God's chosen one / who's come to save us from / all our oppressors") is so exquisitely beautiful one forgets how awful the words are! (In my opinion, this is true about MAD MAN MOON as well. I couldn't care less about the lyrics, but the song always brings tears to my eyes.)

Alberto -

1. I didn't say Phil wrote ONE FOR THE VINE.

2. Although half of the title of WIND AND WUTHERING was borrowed (ineptly, if you ask me) from WUTHERING HEIGHTS, and two compositions on the album derive their titles from the closing words of Emily Bronte's novel, WIND AND WUTHERING is not an interpretation of WUTHERING HEIGHTS at all. (Incidentally, I adore WUTHERING HEIGHTS.)

3. When I say the lyrics to DANCING WITH THE MOONLIT KNIGHT are "nonsense", this is not meant negatively. "Nonsense poetry" is a wonderful genre, Peter Gabriel's lyrics are obviously related to the grand old British tradition of Lewis Carroll and Edward Lear, and I love him for that. "Nonsense poetry" often has hidden political or emotional meanings.

I'm gonna have to leave it there for a while; too busy to add any more comments the next few days, I'm afraid. Take care!
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Points: 7826 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2009 at 14:55
Originally posted by Deathrabbit Deathrabbit wrote:

I think people often confuse crap lyrics with lyrics they don't like.Angry There is a difference, Most of the lyrics I have heard in prog I think are good. Even some of the fantasy stuff is decent as long as it doesn't get too dragon and wizard laced. I mean, hell, aren't works such as the Iliad or A Midsummer Night's Dream considered literary masterpieces? It's all made up fantasy sh*t. If you think prog lyrics are bad, you really need to listen to more mainstream music. I mean after all, it's fun to see how many euphemisms for sex you can think of.Dead

Seriously. about 80% of the prog lyrics I have heard fall into either the good or great category. And btw , I love the message in SIT by Beardfish, so bite me you hairless land mammals!!LOL


You bring up a really good point. Mainstream music almost always has worse lyrics than prog.

Prog, even if occasionally weird, is always better than simple "I love you" in pop music.

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Points: 98 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2009 at 14:57
As much as I love Pain of Salvation, Daniel rapping "f**k you right down to the core" in Spitfall always made me squirm.
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Points: 16449 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2009 at 17:22
Originally posted by p0mt3 p0mt3 wrote:

Originally posted by sleeper sleeper wrote:

^Voices has some of the best lyrics of the 90's, yet its a John Petrucci song. Myung only wrote 4 or 5 songs and, though very good, is probably given more credit than he's due.
 
That's not really fair. I didn't say that other members of DT have never written a good lyric; what I in fact said was that after Myung quite writing, DT's lyrics haven't been any good. I'm assuming you don't agree? Petrucci had written all of his good lyrics by the time that SFaM was released, and Portnoy has always been too straightforward a writer for me to get into. Kevin Moore was okay, but he's no longer in the band, and James LaBrie could be really great, but he doesn't write frequently enough.
 
Every song written by John Myung has moved me in ways lyrically that no one else in the band is anywhere near. Every. Single. Song. He had no low point lyrically, as far as I am concerned. How is that overrated? It's just an opinion. I'm not proclaiming that he was the best songwriter in history, or even Prog history; I just feel that he was the best writer of all of the DT guys.

I'd say the first disc of 6 Degrees had some excellent lyrics, but there's been non since. The implication in your first post was that Myung was the only good lyricist in DT and that since he's stoped writting there's nothing good with DT's lyrics anymore. There's actually an element of truth in that (IMO) but I think its more of a coincidence than Myung having an effect on the others.

By the end of Scenes... Myung had only written 4 songs in the bands 50+ repertoir. They are fantastic songs but it only suggests occasional flashes of brilliance rather than a distinct talant for song writting, or we would have seen more of them and he'd still be writting.
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Points: 33166 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2009 at 17:31
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

With some lyrics people will argue heavily whether they are bad or good. Here a nice example:

Some Questions about Hats

"Can one wear uncanny hats?
Can one weather hats?
Can one wear feather hats?
Concentrate on irate hats
Radiate from hats
When sated, vacate hats
Doors of open water elicit ooh & aahing
Can the wet attract a hat?

Can hats favor fire?
Can a hat aspire to higher things?
Can one pit hats against vicious things?
Pernicious things?
Liquorice fish with wings?

Can hats favor fire?
Can a hat aspire to higher things?
Can one dismiss hats as simple things?
Vapid things?
Scant, evanescent things?"

Now are these bad or good lyrics? Or what?


That's one of my favourite short songs.  Love it.  Gets a lot of playtime since I made a Dagmar Krause compilation with that on it which I keep in my car's CD player.  it's witty.

And just for fun since you mentioned hats. 


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Points: 16449 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2009 at 17:42
Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

There is a hilariously bad Flower Kings lyric which I'm trying to remember, something about horses I believe, anyone know?
 
A lot of their lyrics are bad but that can probably be forgiven as they're not native English speakers.

Your not thinking of Elaine are you?

"Here she comes again, smiling like a horse"
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Points: 247 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2009 at 17:50
Originally posted by fuxi fuxi wrote:

Rael -

1. Poetry has followed "rules" since the days of Homer and the epic of Gilgamesh.

2. The lyrics of ONE FOR THE VINE may seem poetical, but they are definitely not "poetry". No poet would write anything as awful as "terror filled their minds with awe". (You can believe me, translating poetry - and prose - is my job.) But I'll grant you this: the way Phil Collins sings certain lines (e.g. "This is he / God's chosen one / who's come to save us from / all our oppressors") is so exquisitely beautiful one forgets how awful the words are! (In my opinion, this is true about MAD MAN MOON as well. I couldn't care less about the lyrics, but the song always brings tears to my eyes.)

Alberto -

1. I didn't say Phil wrote ONE FOR THE VINE.

2. Although half of the title of WIND AND WUTHERING was borrowed (ineptly, if you ask me) from WUTHERING HEIGHTS, and two compositions on the album derive their titles from the closing words of Emily Bronte's novel, WIND AND WUTHERING is not an interpretation of WUTHERING HEIGHTS at all. (Incidentally, I adore WUTHERING HEIGHTS.)

3. When I say the lyrics to DANCING WITH THE MOONLIT KNIGHT are "nonsense", this is not meant negatively. "Nonsense poetry" is a wonderful genre, Peter Gabriel's lyrics are obviously related to the grand old British tradition of Lewis Carroll and Edward Lear, and I love him for that. "Nonsense poetry" often has hidden political or emotional meanings.

I'm gonna have to leave it there for a while; too busy to add any more comments the next few days, I'm afraid. Take care!


I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Poetry has certain goals, but not rules. It used to, and they are unwritten rules at that. I don't care how much you have translated in your job--poetry is a completely subjective art form. Just because you think it is bad doesn't make it so. I don't care if you like it or not, but to say it isn't poetry is idiotic. How could something be poetical and not be poetry, unless you are describing prose as being poetic?

And you did say Phil Collin's wrote the lyrics. Maybe not directly, but if you are going to deny that you clearly implied it, you're being difficult for the sake of difficult.


Edited by ~Rael~ - February 26 2009 at 21:18
I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress . . .
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Points: 112 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2009 at 22:35
Good thread.  But it's about time somebody cited a few lines of doggerel from Still You Turn Me On;
 
Every day a little sadder
A little madder
Someone get me a ladder
It lacks the high falutin' pretension of some of the others but sure makes up for it in childishness.
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Points: 7053 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2009 at 02:07
Originally posted by fuxi fuxi wrote:

Rael -

1. Poetry has followed "rules" since the days of Homer and the epic of Gilgamesh.

2. The lyrics of ONE FOR THE VINE may seem poetical, but they are definitely not "poetry". No poet would write anything as awful as "terror filled their minds with awe". (You can believe me, translating poetry - and prose - is my job.) But I'll grant you this: the way Phil Collins sings certain lines (e.g. "This is he / God's chosen one / who's come to save us from / all our oppressors") is so exquisitely beautiful one forgets how awful the words are! (In my opinion, this is true about MAD MAN MOON as well. I couldn't care less about the lyrics, but the song always brings tears to my eyes.)

Alberto -

1. I didn't say Phil wrote ONE FOR THE VINE.

2. Although half of the title of WIND AND WUTHERING was borrowed (ineptly, if you ask me) from WUTHERING HEIGHTS, and two compositions on the album derive their titles from the closing words of Emily Bronte's novel, WIND AND WUTHERING is not an interpretation of WUTHERING HEIGHTS at all. (Incidentally, I adore WUTHERING HEIGHTS.)

3. When I say the lyrics to DANCING WITH THE MOONLIT KNIGHT are "nonsense", this is not meant negatively. "Nonsense poetry" is a wonderful genre, Peter Gabriel's lyrics are obviously related to the grand old British tradition of Lewis Carroll and Edward Lear, and I love him for that. "Nonsense poetry" often has hidden political or emotional meanings.

I'm gonna have to leave it there for a while; too busy to add any more comments the next few days, I'm afraid. Take care!
 
Not here to argueTongue just to defend Moonlit Knight and SEBTP. There are so many quintessentially English references in the lyrics you almost have to be English to get them, IMO.
 
"Knights of the Green Shield Stamp and shout": yeah, nonsense on the surface, but if you know what a Green Shield Stamp is/was, you get the selling reference - the stamps were given away in supermarkets etc, housewives saved up books of them and could cash the books in for tacky free gifts like kettles and toasters.
 
"Aisle of Plenty" is a sarcastic reference to supermarkets too - the pun is aisle/Isle, comparing England to one huge Walmart where everything's for sale. Manic Street Preachers borrowed the idea for Everything Must Go.
 
"Battle of Epping Forest" is IMO lyrically superb. It all refers to organised crime gangs like Ron& Reg and others. There were plenty of Mick the Pricks fresh out the nick in real life, believe me. The shops that need aid are those that haven't paid is a reference to protection rackets, there were plenty of real-life Bethnal Green Butchers and if they disagreed on a gangland boundary the bloodshed was very often only too real. The song attacks the media glamourisation of crime - again echoed by the Manics on Archives of Pain.
 
Maybe 'cos I'm a writer and not a musician, I don't think lyrics are unimportant in prog. Why eat cornflakes when you can have steak?
 
My favourite lyrics tend to be by Tull, Caravan, Genesis, some Floyd and many other more obscure bands. IMO the best writers are usually to be found in non-prog bands - Weller, Davies, Nick Jones, Strummer and so many many more.
 
As to what's bad... I'm not judge or jury but I do find Jon Anderson's stuff of very little value - the voice may as well be an instrument for all the meaning I get out of them. And anything about dungeons and dragons, boy meets girl and how tough it is to be in a touring band leaves me cold.
It's not that I can't find worth in anything, it's just that I can't find worth in enough.
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Points: 593 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2009 at 05:14
Worst lyrics I've ever heard came from Magenta and Unitopia... they recylce cliché, simple and cheesy phrases to create songs absolutely wtihout any meaning. Slightly advanced student  of English could write it better. That's what I call bad lyrics.

Many lyrics in prog are aquired taste. Actually I like the way Yes took them, even though often being nonsensical, they are imaginative, original, complicated, playful, suiting perfectly to the whole sound and phrasing.


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Points: 5898 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2009 at 06:33
Originally posted by fuxi fuxi wrote:

The funny thing is there's an American philosophy professor who takes Anderson's lyrics very seriously indeed. Bill Martin is his name, if I remember it right. (He also plays bass guitar and wrote liner notes for the latest series of Yes reissues.) He's written a big fat book on the subject. He takes CTTE, for example, and starts interpreting the lyrics in the light of Plato, Nietzsche, St. Augustine and what-have-you! Just goes to show that for some "academics" anything goes! Now will someone PLEASE rearrange my liver? To the solid mental grace?


Isn't Close to the Edge actually a concept album about Buddhism? Anyway:

Ian Anderson's lyrics > Jon Anderson's lyrics

I think that philosophy professor would have a heart attack if someone informed him of that! LOL
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Points: 24392 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2009 at 07:29
As far as I know, CttE was loosely inspired by Herman Hesse's book Siddharta, which of course was about the Buddha.

As regards the general issue, I've heard my share of bad lyrics (some of them belonging to Italian bands... I always tell Micky he's lucky not to understand what they sing), but also some great ones. Those of you who love nonsense poetry (and I do) would do well to learn Italian and get an earful of Franco Battiato's lyrics - pure genius.
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Points: 2459 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2009 at 12:00
Originally posted by ~Rael~ ~Rael~ wrote:

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Poetry has certain goals, but not rules. It used to, and they are unwritten rules at that. I don't care how much you have translated in your job--poetry is a completely subjective art form. Just because you think it is bad doesn't make it so. I don't care if you like it or not, but to say it isn't poetry is idiotic. How could something be poetical and not be poetry, unless you are describing prose as being poetic?And you did say Phil Collin's wrote the lyrics. Maybe not directly, but if you are going to deny that you clearly implied it, you're being difficult for the sake of difficult.


This is it, Rael! You should read someone's words carefully before you react to them.

1. Lyrics which SEEM poetical (as I said before) can very easily not be poetry. A case in point is the whole of TALES FROM TOPOGRAPHIC OCEANS.

2. About Phil Collins I wrote the following: "The point of view keeps changing from the third person singular to the first, and back again - makes me wanna shout to Phil: Come on man, MAKE UP YOUR MIND." I did this, of course, not because I assumed Phil wrote the lyrics in question, but because he SINGS them. The fact that ONE vocalist is employed (singing in the same voice throughout) makes sloppy lyrics sound even more confusing than they seem on the written page.

3. Any kind of poetry I've ever seen, including the most modernistic (Ezra Pound, Tristan Tzara, what-have-you), follows rules (strict or loose, written or unwritten), otherwise it isn't poetry but gibberish.

By the way, the words in your "signature" are not from "Elephant Talk" but from "Indiscipline", although Adrian Belew actually said: "I repeat MYSELF when under stress."

Interdisciplinarily yours,
Fuxi
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Points: 2459 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2009 at 12:08
Originally posted by el dingo el dingo wrote:


"Knights of the Green Shield Stamp and shout": yeah, nonsense on the surface, but if you know what a Green Shield Stamp is/was, you get the selling reference - the stamps were given away in supermarkets etc, housewives saved up books of them and could cash the books in for tacky free gifts like kettles and toasters.

 


Thanks very much for that! I knew about "Isle of Plenty" but I never knew about those stamps, even though I've been listening to SELLING ENGLAND since 1975! (I only settled in England in 1996.) I still think PG's lyrics are "nonsense", though, but only as a LITERARY GENRE. There are so many parallells with Lewis Carroll's work. If you read "The Hunting of the Snark", for example, that's full of political references as well. Wish someone would publish "The Annotated Genesis"!
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Points: 385 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2009 at 12:14
Originally posted by fuxi fuxi wrote:

Originally posted by el dingo el dingo wrote:


"Knights of the Green Shield Stamp and shout": yeah, nonsense on the surface, but if you know what a Green Shield Stamp is/was, you get the selling reference - the stamps were given away in supermarkets etc, housewives saved up books of them and could cash the books in for tacky free gifts like kettles and toasters.

 

. Wish someone would publish "The Annotated Genesis"!


Funny you said that,there's a very nice site on the web that goes by that name,only instead of Genesis is Lamb Lies Down On Broadway(without THE).It's a very interesting and complete analysis of the album,thouh I guess if you don't like Peter's lyrics,The Lamb must be an awfull album,mostly.Tongue
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Points: 2459 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2009 at 12:17
I adore PG's lyrics!
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Points: 2459 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2009 at 12:40
Before I hide again in my cave, let me stress once again (for those who are still awake) that "Nonsense" is an honourable genre with a long pedigree. Check this out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonsense_verse

The "Annotated Lamb" is here (a pity there's nothing on SEBTP, though):

http://www.bloovis.com/music/lamb.html

Love on ya!
jv

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