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If we ignore the technical brilliance?

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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2023 at 12:37
Ah, so you have official prog credentials? My bad, I didn't know. I bough to your superiority, sir.

But I wonder ... "folks like you, afraid of new music and new sounds", how do you think that applies to me? Please do elaborate. And I'm curious, how many new releases (2023) have you listened to this year?

Here's my favorite releases of 2023, at the time of writing this it's 132.


Edited by MikeEnRegalia - June 13 2023 at 13:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2023 at 12:55
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Everyone seems to overlook the bloated production on acts like Porcupine Tree.

Which album? The type of production varies a lot across their discography. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2023 at 13:02
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Everyone seems to overlook the bloated production on acts like Porcupine Tree.

Which album? The type of production varies a lot across their discography. 


Production has always been a key aspect of PT's sound. Let's face it. The same songs would not sound anywhere near the same unplugged.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2023 at 13:19
^ Sure, SW is a perfectionist when it comes to production, mixing and mastering. Yet all the albums are different in that regard. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote progaardvark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2023 at 15:15
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

^ bloated is not a bad word. It means immoderately wealthy in sound :)

Bloated also means swollen with fluid or gas. It's one reason I advocate for headphones that come with a nose attachment because eventually the music will release something worth smelling.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2023 at 15:15
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

....As for your Grunge list topic, I haven't explored grunge much. I like Nirvana's Nevermind and In Utero, but have not listened to those in quite a long time. I guess there plenty of related music I have been into.
But we might both have been thinking that something was needed to balance a little the cheese. Big smile

Which makes me think of that emotions can be a problem, too.

                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progaardvark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2023 at 15:20
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Ideas come and go with all the turds, and we can have a beer, or a cup of tea over it and laugh ...

Sometimes it's the little things that are worth celebrating, especially being regular.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2023 at 15:23
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

....As for your Grunge list topic, I haven't explored grunge much. I like Nirvana's Nevermind and In Utero, but have not listened to those in quite a long time. I guess there plenty of related music I have been into.
But we might both have been thinking that something was needed to balance a little the cheese. Big smile


Which makes me think of that emotions can be a problem, too.



Always important to keep balance, methinks, including balancing out the cheese.

"The scales of cheese are not balanced by judging the wrong cheese and praising the right cheese, but from letting go of all cheesy illusions."

Emotions can be a big problem, but I for one, no matter how suffering they can bring, would rather not be without. Just need to be mitigated and controlled sometimes. Moderation in all things, which actually would include moderation in moderation....
Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote progaardvark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2023 at 15:26
I'm fond of Swiss cheese; the more holes the better. It seems like a nice balance between the milder and stronger cheeses.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2023 at 15:38
^ I'd like to sell Swiss cheese that is all hole. It would be in the diet Vegan section. "Cheesy Hole -- all of the hole, none of the cheese.".
Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2023 at 15:42
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

 "The scales of cheese are not balanced by judging the wrong cheese and praising the right cheese, but from letting go of all cheesy illusions."

Then, I can imagine it can be difficult to agree about the definition of "cheese".

                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2023 at 15:52
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

 "The scales of cheese are not balanced by judging the wrong cheese and praising the right cheese, but from letting go of all cheesy illusions."


Then, I can imagine it can be difficult to agree about the definition of "cheese".


And we think that defining Prog is problematic. It's been a huge debate in the heady, high and cheesy halls of the Supreme Cheese Court. It is hoped that Judge James LaBrie of Cream Cheese Theater will announce his verdict in the coming days.
Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote progaardvark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2023 at 15:56
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

^ I'd like to sell Swiss cheese that is all hole. It would be in the diet Vegan section. "Cheesy Hole -- all of the hole, none of the cheese.".

Usually the larger the hole the more intense the flavor is. A cheese that is entirely a hole would likely win many tasting prizes once one figures out how to eat a hole.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2023 at 18:24
^ Just got to make sure it's pure unadulterated hole, because some holes hold nasty surprises.

By the way, had I done a new topic, then it's likely that I would have done it in General Music Discussions. Part of what makes The Shaggs so great is the incompetence... Too strong a word, that none of the girls were the kind of acclaimed virtuosos that one might expect to sell out, say, La Scala in Milan or win prestigious musician awards. Would we by so enthused by the masterpiece-of-something that is Tommy Wiseau's The Room if it were more traditionally competent?

With Prog I do tend to appreciate a certain level of non-ineptitude in the music.

Edited by Logan - June 13 2023 at 18:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jacob Schoolcraft Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2023 at 19:48
They are two opposites which blend together well in music . Either one can attract the interest of people who develop attitudes about it and go to the extreme by giving other people the impression that one is in good taste and the other in bad taste. Although music is subjective it seems fanatical and a bit like an extremist to go beyond your personal opinion evolved out of your personal preference to like something about music that you have to magnify your dislike through measuring its value.

One example is a person who may sit and critique Kevin Godley's drumming with 10CC because they'd rather hear Billy Cobham, Tony Williams, Carl Palmer, or Bill Bruford. They may not reveal that , but it's part of their sub con. Think about it. Why would you want to place a more technical style of drumming in 10CC? That might make their music less desirable. A person who constantly listens for chops is missing out on the beauty of The Original Soundtrack and Sheet Music. They've drifted too far away from the simplicity of music to ever appreciate it. That's extreme.

Another extreme often surfaces through a person who prefers long bending notes of simplistic melodies on electric guitar and has a mindset that more technical guitar playing clutters music with noodling. They don't see the point of playing fast on the guitar and their comparison to improvisation and masturbation are one and the same. They can't see the point in playing something gymnastic and find it to be unnecessary to music because they've drifted too far away from that concept by putting more value into simplicity.

Some people enjoy both...however in my life I've found those people to be outnumbered. Maybe not...but sometimes it feels like a battle between the two



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2023 at 00:16
Originally posted by Jacob Schoolcraft Jacob Schoolcraft wrote:



Another extreme often surfaces through a person who prefers long bending notes of simplistic melodies on electric guitar and has a mindset that more technical guitar playing clutters music with noodling. They don't see the point of playing fast on the guitar and their comparison to improvisation and masturbation are one and the same. They can't see the point in playing something gymnastic and find it to be unnecessary to music because they've drifted too far away from that concept by putting more value into simplicity.

Some people enjoy both...however in my life I've found those people to be outnumbered. Maybe not...but sometimes it feels like a battle between the two


If you can't appreciate both then you are a very poor reviewer of progressive music, since the very essence of prog is the use of unusual techniques as well as unusual ways of combining them. That's the case in most of the prog sub "genres" out there. If you are so close-minded that you have to liken fast, skillful playing to masturbation, then you are an insult to any musician out there, no matter the level or attitude.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2023 at 00:29
Just to clarify, I think that reviewers can and should point out things they don't like in the music! If you don't like "fast notes", then say so. If you like fast notes, but you think they don't fit in the piece of music you're reviewing, then say so. If you think that the playing is sloppy, or the intonation is bad, or the production is bad - say so. But the more negative your comment is, the more careful you should be to make sure that it is justified and that you actually mean to criticise the musicians.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2023 at 05:33
Originally posted by Jacob Schoolcraft Jacob Schoolcraft wrote:

They are two opposites which blend together well in music . Either one can attract the interest of people who develop attitudes about it and go to the extreme by giving other people the impression that one is in good taste and the other in bad taste. Although music is subjective it seems fanatical and a bit like an extremist to go beyond your personal opinion evolved out of your personal preference to like something about music that you have to magnify your dislike through measuring its value.
...

Hi,

Thank you ... 

It's been my only concern, that many of these comments are not going beyond "personal opinion" or a "like/dislike" atmosphere. It is, in fact, very sad.

I listen to a lot of things and be it that I have heard some 50+ of them this year (new material) has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of my comments ... in fact, the more I hear, the LESS I wish to comment that something is better than the other, or that one aspect of a person's playing is more important than the music itself ... which is what one person is standing up for. 

It's not "subjective" at that point, specially if you listen to many things ... your tastes don't necessarily get spread out all over the field, but your ability to define and decide something good or better changes with every listen ... with one concern here ... I seriously doubt that the person is actually LISTENING to the albums in their entirety, otherwise that comment would not be made to make a point that has absolutely nothing to do with the OP or the discussion at hand. And it comes from someone that says he misses "discussion".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progaardvark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2023 at 05:40
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

 Part of what makes The Shaggs so great is the incompetence... Too strong a word, that none of the girls were the kind of acclaimed virtuosos that one might expect to sell out, say, La Scala in Milan or win prestigious musician awards. Would we by so enthused by the masterpiece-of-something that is Tommy Wiseau's The Room if it were more traditionally competent?

With Prog I do tend to appreciate a certain level of non-ineptitude in the music.

I would describe The Shaggs as "unintentional technical brilliance." It's kind of an interesting dichotomy in that both Dot and Betty Wiggin thought Philosophy of the World was terrible, but it attracted so many musos who thought the work was amazing. I think both of them were taken aback when Jesse Krakow wanted to perform the songs as they were originally performed and drummer Laura Cromwell spent many, many hours perfecting the drum style of Helen Wiggin, just for their reunion from several years ago.

Sometimes great things, often unusually creative, come out of unintentional acts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2023 at 05:48
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

I listen to a lot of things and be it that I have heard some 50+ of them this year (new material) has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of my comments ... in fact, the more I hear, the LESS I wish to comment that something is better than the other, or that one aspect of a person's playing is more important than the music itself ... which is what one person is standing up for.

I don't really know what you like, what you don't like, or what you're listening to. You have only a handful of reviews listed at PA, and only from a few genres, and your website is basically non-functional.

If you don't want to rate or review music, that's fine - now if you could do us a favor and also refrain from rating reviewers, that would be even better Wink
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