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The T

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Posted: January 27 2014 at 14:39

KingCrInuYasha View Drop Down

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Posted: January 27 2014 at 16:47

LSDisease wrote:

[QUOTE=KingCrInuYasha]

...

Freedom is when people do what they want but are responsible for that and the state isn't a nanny to anybody.

Fair enough. I can get that.

He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball!

The Pessimist View Drop Down

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Posted: January 27 2014 at 21:11

Blacksword wrote:

The Pessimist wrote:

Okay, I never thought this would turn into a Socialists vs Capitalists debate. I think that there must be another thread on this site to discuss this, so kindly move to that respective thread please?A point brought up by our very own 40-50 year old British man Blacksword... I think the sound philosophy of feminism has been hi-jacked
in our popular culture to push a rather distorted and actually quite
bigoted message. The people who distort the message aren't to be taken note of. That is fundamental when understanding such an important movement as Feminism. Note, in most sitcoms and comedy films it's the man
who's the idiot and is the target of everyones ridicule, and the focus
of the comedy. The women is always the sensible character; at least
relatively so. This doesn't reflect reality of course, where men and
women can be equally profoundly stupid and self interested. Yes, isn't that gender inequality? That's not Feminism. It's the opposite of Feminism. Positive discrimination is just as harmful as negative discrimination, perhaps even more.
The problem with this 'harmless fun' poked continuously at men is
that it undermines the value of the father figure in the family unit,
until he becomes nothing more than the resident clown and scapegoat. And what exactly is the "father figure"? Is it a position that no woman could ever achieve? What is it exactly? One
hundred years from now, men will be simpering, feminised wimps,
sexually confused and performing very few roles of any worth in our
society. I doubt that very much. Hopefully, all men will be is a little bit more respectful to the rights of women. That, to me, makes them bigger and better men. Women will be in charge and ironically and tragically they will
no longer resemble women as we know them. You mean the type driven meek and helpless by years of patriarchal oppression? Diddums. They will exhibit all the
undesirable traits of ruthlessness and bigotry, once the domain of
ambitious career obsessed males, in order to achieve the success they
crave. Many women will choose not to have children, and many of those
who do want children will choose to do so without involving a man. You sound very much like Enoch Powell, sorry. All your assumptions are a priori. They
will concieve artificially, so to avoid being lumbered with a man in
their life, and having a mans influence on the childs upbringing. You are undermining almost every woman's (95%) desire to love another man. My partner is one of the smartest people I know, and a feminist, and we love each other very much. She doesn't see me as inferior at all, and she's not bigoted towards men. In
those times having a male child will be deemed less desirable than
having a girl, in the same way that it is currently the opposite in some
cultures.
Where exactly is this information coming from?
Then the backlash will come, and men will be on the march (burning
their boxer shorts?) the wheel will turn, and the cycle return to the
start..
I don't think this very likely. Partly because Feminism (and no organisation for that matter) is trying to achieve that.

"The people who distort the message aren't to be taken note of. That is fundamental when understanding such an important movement as Feminism"

That's the problem. They ARE taken note of, and that's how feminism is interpreted by many; the woman is always right and the bloke looks like a d!ck. It really doesn't matter that that is an incorrect depiction of feminism. It's lost on people. What your saying is true, but that's not the responsibility of feminists.

You make many points, some I have sympathy with and I'm what I would call a true feminist rather than a media feminist. My dystopian vision of the future is just an extreme case fantasy, and probably wasn't to be taken entirely seriously, but you have to admit that feminism like religion is interpreted often in ways that suits the individuals outlook and agenda. Yes, but once again, it's not the responsibility of feminists to cater to the people that misinterpret it as lesbians looking for a fight. Religion is slightly different to feminism. Actually, very different, for two reasons: firstly with feminism you don't have the danger of cognitive dissonance. Secondly, the more research you do into religious texts the more horrific the religion actually seems (I've read the Bible twice and most of the Qur'an, and they are both peppered with either basic level fallacies, contradictions, things that are plain weird and things that are downright sick). The more you read into feminist literature however, the more it makes logical sense. I think most of the misinterpretation of both religion and feminism however is down to not knowing enough about it. In the words of Harlan Ellison: "You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No-one is entitled to ignorance." For some women it's just an excuse to act like men. How exactly? Standing up for themselves? I can imagine that gets quite frustrating, yes. There was a time when women easily held the moral high ground on behaviour. You'd never see women half naked lying in the street Lady Godiva?, p!ssed out of their minds. Isn't it wonderful how they are actually able to do that now? How is that any worse than men doing the same, which they do? (I'm a student by the way, I've seen it all and it repulses me too) That was always an idiot male thing, now - in the name of equality - it's commonplace. If that's what passes as feminism even in the minds of a significant minority of women, then that is a problem. How? Are you saying that all women should be prim and proper while men are allowed to act like animals? You could argue that women who seek to be equal to men in this regard lack ambition..

I would say that fighting any form of oppression is pretty ambitious. I don't think your issue is necessarily with women binge drinking, but moreso with the culture in general, in which case I'm on your side. You're argument isn't an argument against feminism though.

When it comes to equal rights, equal pay and equal opportunities based on ability rather than gender is quite obviously a no brainer, and anyone who opposes that is an obvious bigot. Hence why I'm still talking to you and not LSDisease

Regarding it being called "Feminism"... The term makes perfect sense. Females are the gender being oppressed worldwide, and so the fight for them to be treated equally to men is quite rightly called feminism.

"Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value."

Arnold Schoenberg

The Dark Elf View Drop Down

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Posted: January 27 2014 at 22:05

LSDisease wrote:

The T wrote:

??? So I guess the best solution would be to just let things be, so that, taking this back in time and in relation to this thread, women still couldn't vote, get paid way less than men for the same job, etc. Or, nowadays, only rich people should be able to get higher education so they could get even richer while not rich people are stuck without an education. So that's the whole idea?? Confused

You are not even saying "the state does not have to be the solution but the market will come up with answers to help the needy". No. That would be an actual idea. You are just saying that "life isn't fair and you won't change it" and that "ALL attempts to make it more fair create poverty"... ALL, so there are no exceptions, at any level...

I don;t care what experience you had with the Stasi or whether your life under Honecker was terrible (which it probably was, nobody denies the disaster of the DDR and marxism-leninism) but to use that as an excuse to reject ANY attempt at reducing life's normal unfairness is way more than just ridiculous...

"So I guess the best solution would be to just let things be " absolutely. Let the people be free and let 'em make mistakes. They will learn. If an option is a nanny state people will never learn. Because they'll constantly expect that all their problems will be solved by the government.

I am sure white folk living in the 1950's American South and the whites ruling South Africa during Apartheid would agree with you completely. You might have even gotten elected governor of Alabama with that sort of nearsighted, absurd rhetoric. The black folk might disagree with you, however. "Letting things be" would evidently be fine and dandy if maintaining the status quo keeps your personal financial and societal status high.

Remarkably, sometimes laws are enacted that confound everyone (including the lawmakers who inexplicably managed to pass the Bills) by actually working and enriching the lives of millions. Waiting for people to "learn from their mistakes" does not and never has worked.

...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...

Kati

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Posted: January 27 2014 at 23:50

I only read the topic and to be honest I find it very silly. To me as a women that lived in Holland for many years felt no discrimination, equally lived in South Africa also no discrimination, now live in Mozambique and actually am doing very well in terms of my career. Thus I cannot relate to this topic, never understood the purpose of Feminism really. I think we have more important equal rights to fight for i.e. gay marriage and in other countries the equal rights for women.

Blacksword View Drop Down

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Posted: January 28 2014 at 00:26

Kati wrote:

I only read the topic and to be honest I find it very silly. To me as a women that lived in Holland for many years felt no discrimination, equally lived in South Africa also no discrimination, now live in Mozambique and actually am doing very well in terms of my career. Thus I cannot relate to this topic, never understood the purpose of Feminism really. I think we have more important equal rights to fight for i.e. gay marriage and in other countries the equal rights for women.

Film director Aaron Russo once claimed that Nicholas Rockerfeller told him that the Rockerfeller Foundation bankrolled and promoted the womens lib movement of the 60's, officially as an emanciptation movement, but really it was an initiative to get more women into the work place where they could be taxed!

Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!

Kati

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Posted: January 28 2014 at 00:31

Blacksword wrote:

Blacksword :) if they would legalize and tax the world oldest profession maybe there would be no austerity measures ;) it's like bootlegging you cannot stop it, might as well control and tax it in my opinion.

JJLehto

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Posted: January 28 2014 at 07:36

I treat everyone equally.

I treat girls the same way I treat guys.

Which doesn't always mean: well

If I like you I'm good to you, if I don't well...

But there's no difference in how I behave towards people in regard to gender.

If that is "feminism" I have no f**kin clue. Like most words it's become all about debating the word, and getting worked up and all crazy over the word.

Like how most people really are "environmentalists" except some take that to mean "hippie liberal crap" so they fight against it, even though they recycle and try to be "green" and blah blah Actions matter, could care less what word you want attached to it.

So yeah, no idea what I am but I treat everyone the same, and not just in broad strokes. When out somewhere, we all know how most of my fellow males pull a 180, become actors, drop everything they do to impress a girl and IDK...that always seemed like: unequal treatment to me? Maybe I'm way off base and partly justifying my shyness

but really, with me you get what you get, if ya like me or not great (regardless of gender).

Dear lord someone brought marxism into all this?

Well PA never lets down, anything came become a debate about socialism!

Edited by JJLehto - January 28 2014 at 07:38

LSDisease

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Posted: January 28 2014 at 08:42

The T wrote:

Wacko

So those who are born poor have to remain poor and those who are born rich can either remain rich or go poor (only to talk about wealth, there are many other instances of "unfairness"). So do you think that the market will provide options for those who start at a disadvantage? Is that what you say? Or are your views completely empty only limiting to "just let things be" as a principle?

You know you need to find the answer, why people are actually poor. Because of capitalism? Or it's because of high taxes that are the essence of modern socialism? If people are free to decide, free to work and they can save money it's a basic thing to create a well prospering middle class. If you create extra taxes and make'em higher and higher no wonder some people are poor.

"Du gehst zu Frauen? Vergiss die Peitsche nicht!"

Guldbamsen View Drop Down

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Posted: January 28 2014 at 08:49

Could we please get back on topic?

Man I'm getting fed up with this Ermm

“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down

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Posted: January 28 2014 at 08:49

Socialism is immoral.

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

presdoug

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Posted: January 28 2014 at 08:50

As men, or women, we have both aggressive and erotic drives. These cannot be ignored, but must be harnessed and ultimately expressed in a healthy fashion. I think that these are what get people into trouble, when they erupt into rape, violence, etc.
Ask any man or woman on the street how easy it really is to run rampant in society and abuse their freedom, and they will tell you that it is very easy.
So no matter what political or societal system you are in, you will have Social Darwinism to deal with.

Guldbamsen View Drop Down

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Posted: January 28 2014 at 09:00

I moved the last LSDisease rebuttal to the political discussion thread http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=40226&PID=4932659#4932659. Feel free to continue there. This is not the place.

Oh and I haven't participated in this thrilling discussion as of yet due to the catastrophic lack of boobs Cry

Edited by Guldbamsen - January 28 2014 at 09:08

“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams

NotAProghead View Drop Down

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Posted: January 28 2014 at 09:32

Kati wrote:

I think we have more important equal rights to fight for i.e. gay marriage

I think it's in the very end of the list of the world's actual problems. Smile

Edited by NotAProghead - January 28 2014 at 09:33

Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)

Blacksword View Drop Down

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Posted: January 28 2014 at 09:34

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Socialism is immoral.

It may well be, but capitalism is hardly lilly white is it..

All political systems result in winners and losers, so neither system is perfect. Do you want dependency on state or on corporations? Personally I think both avenues of control absolutely suck.

I don't know what the alternatives are though. If I did I probably wouldn't be doing the job that I am doing..

Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!

ExittheLemming View Drop Down

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Posted: January 28 2014 at 09:41

To think that Valerie Solanas got just THREE YEARS for shooting and wounding Andy Warhol, Mario Amaya and Warhol's manger Fred Hughes. Scum....

The T

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Posted: January 28 2014 at 10:11

Guldbamsen wrote:

I moved the last LSDisease rebuttal to the political discussion thread http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=40226&PID=4932659#4932659. Feel free to continue there. This is not the place.

Oh and I haven't participated in this thrilling discussion as of yet due to the catastrophic lack of boobs Cry

Well done but really, he is implying that feminism is a form of marxism and then he is talking about other things, I think at least part of the discussion is related to this subject.

Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down

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Posted: January 28 2014 at 10:17

Blacksword wrote:

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Socialism is immoral.

You're missing the point of my post by responding Wink