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Dean View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2015 at 16:24
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by Big Kid Josie Big Kid Josie wrote:

(...)

Somebody made a convincing argument about Strawberry Fields Forever being the first English symphonic rock song, but to my mind, the Beatles are mainly the most influential/most popular precursors to prog...

(...)

In favour of that that Strawberry Fields Forever was the first song of English Symphonic rock, there is one "detail" more: 

Quote The combination (Strawberry Fields & Penny Lane) reached number two in Britain, breaking the band's four-year run of chart-topping singles there, while "Strawberry Fields Forever" peaked at number eight on the Billboard Hot 100 in America.
Wiki

The song was obviously "strange" for everybody's ears; it was not (only) pop, psych or a riff based song. It was a new genre that will be called Symphonic rock some years later.
You muppet. At that time double 'A' sides were counted as two separate singles, so what you failed to observe is that when you add the sales from Penny Lane, (which reached number one in the US chart and number two in the UK chart), it sold twice as many copies than the single that beat it to the top of the UK chart. This was not 'obviously "strange"' for everybody's ears since it was as successful as any other Beatles single at the time. Remember also that two weeks earlier The Move reached the very same number two in the UK chart with the Tchaikovsky inspired Night Of Fear, signifying that the British public were quite comfortable with a bit of Classical with their Pop. What this all was called of course, was Baroque Pop, and it was by no means a new genre, having been in existence for at least three years before SFF/PL was released. Sure Symphonic Rock was a derivative of Baroque Pop (among other things) but a hell of a lot of development ensued before Symphonic Rock became recognisable as a distinctly separated subgenre of Rock music.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2015 at 16:39
Anyway, having mentioned the Barque Pop of Penny Lane, I recall that the Beat Less recorded one other song at the same time as Strawberry Fjords and Penelope Lane, being of course the old thyme music hall sing-a-long of When I'm Sixty Four - another song that features unusual instrumentation and studio trickery.

Edited by Dean - July 08 2015 at 16:40
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2015 at 16:44
^I always considered When I'm Sixty Four as the Beatles anti-psychedelic song. Or, as Greg would say 'granny music'.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2015 at 16:47
Well Strawberry Fields IS strange in a good way even to modern ears now. "Strawberry fields...nothing is real." The notes hit on those words are chromatic and dissonant, and not to mention the outro. That doesn't mean no one had done that sort of thing before or that you could say "HERE! THE BIRTH OF PROG!" Psychedelic/Baroque pop had many comparable examples since '66. Good Vibrations was released earlier and is equally radical for its time, so to arbitrarily put a stake on Strawberry Fields doesn't work for me.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2015 at 16:54
^As I stated in an earlier post Friday, SFF was only a talking point for me in order to get the ball rolling. If I wanted to be more explicit about the Beatles, I would have introduced Revolver's, Sgt. Pepper's, as well as MMT's material into the mix, but SFF alone did suffice.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2015 at 16:57
Sure, not trying to point the finger. You were not the most adamant about it either like some people Ermm Those are my favorite Beatles albums, btw! 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2015 at 16:58
^Gothcha! it's all good!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2015 at 17:09
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^I always considered When I'm Sixty Four as the Beatles anti-psychedelic song. Or, as Greg would say 'granny music'.
*shrug* ... the London psychedelic scene was Georgian nostalgia in lurid colours and When I'm Sixty-four is merely a further reflection of that. It ain't a psychedelic pop song by any stretch of the imagination, but it isn't anti-psychedelic because it was still a creation of the psychedelic era. Of course the lyric is a contradiction of the music, and suspect that is deliberate.

It also features tu-bu-lar-bells... dong-da-da-dong dong dong dong da-da-dong. Clown
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2015 at 17:36
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Squabbling over who was the first will never yield an answer because there wasn’t one single identifiable first
Yes but it's fun and sometimes even interesting.

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2015 at 18:00
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by aglasshouse aglasshouse wrote:

I thought a lot of people thought Piper was the first....
No, that is, was and always has been, considered to be psychedelic rock/pop album. Saucerful too, albeit with some proto-Prog moments. Floyd's first true Prog album would have been Ummagumma if it had been a single studio album.

I've always seen Ummagumma as a psychedelic/avant-garde rock album first and foremost. Wouldn't Meddle be their first true prog album?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2015 at 18:23
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^I always considered When I'm Sixty Four as the Beatles anti-psychedelic song. Or, as Greg would say 'granny music'.
*shrug* ... the London psychedelic scene was Georgian nostalgia in lurid colours and When I'm Sixty-four is merely a further reflection of that. It ain't a psychedelic pop song by any stretch of the imagination, but it isn't anti-psychedelic because it was still a creation of the psychedelic era. Of course the lyric is a contradiction of the music, and suspect that is deliberate.

It also features tu-bu-lar-bells... dong-da-da-dong dong dong dong da-da-dong. Clown
Agreed. The lyrical contradiction can either be viewed as cleaver or cloying. I'll go for the later.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2015 at 18:27
^ But it was also a weird and wonderful homage to that kind of song; both a trippy imitation and funny lambasting which was very much a part of the Psych approach (Doors, Janis, Floyd occasionally) .  I think McCartney described trying to imitate Sinatra.





Edited by Atavachron - July 08 2015 at 18:28
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2015 at 18:30
^I agree. It's a wonderful pastiche of a bygone era's great dance hall songs. But perhaps it's a bit too saccharine for my taste.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2015 at 19:13
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^I agree. It's a wonderful pastiche of a bygone era's great dance hall songs. But perhaps it's a bit too saccharine for my taste.
It's when you compare it to an actual music hall rendition of the song (for example the pedestrian version by Kenny Ball and his Jazzmen) that the Sgt Pepper version reveals itself to be more than a pastiche. Unlike some of their other genre jumping songs that were rendered pastiche to the point of parody by the fab four, When I'm Sixty-four turns out to be a cleverer piece of music arrangement than any music hall song. But yeah, saccharine it most definitely is (and that's not uncommon in Macca songs IMO).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2015 at 19:20
^Yes. I have to agree with you on that. I always used to say that the song was George Martin's finest score for a Beatles' song, until I discovered it was scored by someone else while Martin was working on the recording of another artist, for which he hardly forgave Macca, even up to now!

Edited by SteveG - July 09 2015 at 10:21
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2015 at 19:27
Originally posted by Pastmaster Pastmaster wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by aglasshouse aglasshouse wrote:

I thought a lot of people thought Piper was the first....
No, that is, was and always has been, considered to be psychedelic rock/pop album. Saucerful too, albeit with some proto-Prog moments. Floyd's first true Prog album would have been Ummagumma if it had been a single studio album.

I've always seen Ummagumma as a psychedelic/avant-garde rock album first and foremost. Wouldn't Meddle be their first true prog album?
*shrug* ...or Atom Heart Mother. I'm not that fussed either way, it's not Piper (or Saucerful), or Ummagumma that's all. 

Though that said, take away the psych/space rock live album from Ummagumma and there is precious little psychedelic rock in the remaining studio album. Combining elements of avant-garde, music concrète, folk, symphonic and pastoral rock that is loosely called called experimental rock, personally I don't think the avant-garde rock element dominates the music enough to call it an avant-garde rock album as such. Does that make it Prog? *another shrug* in as much as AHM and Meddle are.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2015 at 19:34
^Well, the basis of these albums is psychedelia. Anything avant-garde would be a bonus, as would anything that's found to be prog. Agree?

Edited by SteveG - July 08 2015 at 19:34
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2015 at 19:46
^ your boundaries for psychedelia are broader than mine.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2015 at 00:26
Originally posted by Friday13th Friday13th wrote:

Well Strawberry Fields IS strange in a good way even to modern ears now. "Strawberry fields...nothing is real." The notes hit on those words are chromatic and dissonant, and not to mention the outro. That doesn't mean no one had done that sort of thing before or that you could say "HERE! THE BIRTH OF PROG!" Psychedelic/Baroque pop had many comparable examples since '66. Good Vibrations was released earlier and is equally radical for its time, so to arbitrarily put a stake on Strawberry Fields doesn't work for me.
Strawberry Fields Forever is 'haunting' (strange-in-a-good-way, but not for everybody at that time) nothing less than e.g. Entangled by Genesis in 70s since we know how big difference in the equipment, technology of recording etc. actually is between 60s and middle of 70s, even in the case when The Beatles use that Indian harp (i.e. swarmandal, Hindustani Classical music instrument) to underline that haunting atmosphere.
 





Smile

Regarding Psychedelic and Baroque pop the tags, both tags are not quite suitable for Strawberry Fields Forever. Tomorow Never Knows is the great psych, and we could even describe that one as 'progressive psychedelia' aswell, but it's a 'psychedelic experience', not that haunting, pastoral and moony atmosphere of Strawbery Fields Forever.
The Beatles' songs like Yesterday and (or) Eleanor Rigby, simply due to that usage of the strings, were called Baroque pop. By the other bands, as an example of Baroque pop, I'd like to mention Walk Away Renee (1966) by NYC band The Left Banke. So everybody can hear that Baroque pop have nothing to do with Strawberry Fields Forever, i.e. SFF is not something derived from Baroque pop.
In lack of the term 'Symphonic rock' that will be coined some years later, Strawberry Fields Forever used to be and still to be wrongly tagged as a "Psych" and "Baroque pop", although both tags never ever work well for Strawberry Fields Forever  because Strawberry Fields Forever  already was something else, a new subgenre; The Beatles were move ahead. 








And that's it. Just born English Symphonic rock.


Edited by Svetonio - July 09 2015 at 10:04
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2015 at 00:35
Originally posted by Pastmaster Pastmaster wrote:


I've always seen Ummagumma as a psychedelic/avant-garde rock album first and foremost. Wouldn't Meddle be their first true prog album?
Meddle is their first serious move to 'progressive psychedelia', though 'progressive psychedelia' is just a description for more experimental psych; it was related to prog-rock indeed, but it still to be Psychedelic rock.

Edited by Svetonio - July 09 2015 at 00:53
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