Did the Beatles really Invent Prog? Or not? |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: July 08 2015 at 16:24 | ||
You muppet. At that time double 'A' sides were counted as two separate singles, so what you failed to observe is that when you add the sales from Penny Lane, (which reached number one in the US chart and number two in the UK chart), it sold twice as many copies than the single that beat it to the top of the UK chart. This was not 'obviously "strange"' for everybody's ears since it was as successful as any other Beatles single at the time. Remember also that two weeks earlier The Move reached the very same number two in the UK chart with the Tchaikovsky inspired Night Of Fear, signifying that the British public were quite comfortable with a bit of Classical with their Pop. What this all was called of course, was Baroque Pop, and it was by no means a new genre, having been in existence for at least three years before SFF/PL was released. Sure Symphonic Rock was a derivative of Baroque Pop (among other things) but a hell of a lot of development ensued before Symphonic Rock became recognisable as a distinctly separated subgenre of Rock music.
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: July 08 2015 at 16:39 | ||
Anyway, having mentioned the Barque Pop of Penny Lane, I recall that the Beat Less recorded one other song at the same time as Strawberry Fjords and Penelope Lane, being of course the old thyme music hall sing-a-long of When I'm Sixty Four - another song that features unusual instrumentation and studio trickery.
Edited by Dean - July 08 2015 at 16:40 |
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20538 |
Posted: July 08 2015 at 16:44 | ||
^I always considered When I'm Sixty Four as the Beatles anti-psychedelic song. Or, as Greg would say 'granny music'.
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Friday13th
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 30 2013 Status: Offline Points: 284 |
Posted: July 08 2015 at 16:47 | ||
Well Strawberry Fields IS strange in a good way even to modern ears now. "Strawberry fields...nothing is real." The notes hit on those words are chromatic and dissonant, and not to mention the outro. That doesn't mean no one had done that sort of thing before or that you could say "HERE! THE BIRTH OF PROG!" Psychedelic/Baroque pop had many comparable examples since '66. Good Vibrations was released earlier and is equally radical for its time, so to arbitrarily put a stake on Strawberry Fields doesn't work for me.
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20538 |
Posted: July 08 2015 at 16:54 | ||
^As I stated in an earlier post Friday, SFF was only a talking point for me in order to get the ball rolling. If I wanted to be more explicit about the Beatles, I would have introduced Revolver's, Sgt. Pepper's, as well as MMT's material into the mix, but SFF alone did suffice.
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Friday13th
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 30 2013 Status: Offline Points: 284 |
Posted: July 08 2015 at 16:57 | ||
Sure, not trying to point the finger. You were not the most adamant about it either like some people Those are my favorite Beatles albums, btw!
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20538 |
Posted: July 08 2015 at 16:58 | ||
^Gothcha! it's all good!
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: July 08 2015 at 17:09 | ||
*shrug* ... the London psychedelic scene was Georgian nostalgia in lurid colours and When I'm Sixty-four is merely a further reflection of that. It ain't a psychedelic pop song by any stretch of the imagination, but it isn't anti-psychedelic because it was still a creation of the psychedelic era. Of course the lyric is a contradiction of the music, and suspect that is deliberate. It also features tu-bu-lar-bells... dong-da-da-dong dong dong dong da-da-dong.
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Online Points: 64700 |
Posted: July 08 2015 at 17:36 | ||
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Pastmaster
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 23 2015 Location: Spiderwood Farm Status: Offline Points: 1774 |
Posted: July 08 2015 at 18:00 | ||
I've always seen Ummagumma as a psychedelic/avant-garde rock album first and foremost. Wouldn't Meddle be their first true prog album?
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20538 |
Posted: July 08 2015 at 18:23 | ||
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Online Points: 64700 |
Posted: July 08 2015 at 18:27 | ||
^ But it was also a weird and wonderful homage to that kind of song; both a trippy imitation and funny lambasting which was very much a part of the Psych approach (Doors, Janis, Floyd occasionally) . I think McCartney described trying to imitate Sinatra.
Edited by Atavachron - July 08 2015 at 18:28 |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20538 |
Posted: July 08 2015 at 18:30 | ||
^I agree. It's a wonderful pastiche of a bygone era's great dance hall songs. But perhaps it's a bit too saccharine for my taste.
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: July 08 2015 at 19:13 | ||
It's when you compare it to an actual music hall rendition of the song (for example the pedestrian version by Kenny Ball and his Jazzmen) that the Sgt Pepper version reveals itself to be more than a pastiche. Unlike some of their other genre jumping songs that were rendered pastiche to the point of parody by the fab four, When I'm Sixty-four turns out to be a cleverer piece of music arrangement than any music hall song. But yeah, saccharine it most definitely is (and that's not uncommon in Macca songs IMO).
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20538 |
Posted: July 08 2015 at 19:20 | ||
^Yes. I have to agree with you on that. I always used to say that the song was George Martin's finest score for a Beatles' song, until I discovered it was scored by someone else while Martin was working on the recording of another artist, for which he hardly forgave Macca, even up to now!
Edited by SteveG - July 09 2015 at 10:21 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: July 08 2015 at 19:27 | ||
*shrug* ...or Atom Heart Mother. I'm not that fussed either way, it's not Piper (or Saucerful), or Ummagumma that's all. Though that said, take away the psych/space rock live album from Ummagumma and there is precious little psychedelic rock in the remaining studio album. Combining elements of avant-garde, music concrète, folk, symphonic and pastoral rock that is loosely called called experimental rock, personally I don't think the avant-garde rock element dominates the music enough to call it an avant-garde rock album as such. Does that make it Prog? *another shrug* in as much as AHM and Meddle are.
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20538 |
Posted: July 08 2015 at 19:34 | ||
^Well, the basis of these albums is psychedelia. Anything avant-garde would be a bonus, as would anything that's found to be prog. Agree?
Edited by SteveG - July 08 2015 at 19:34 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: July 08 2015 at 19:46 | ||
^ your boundaries for psychedelia are broader than mine.
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Svetonio
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 20 2010 Location: Serbia Status: Offline Points: 10213 |
Posted: July 09 2015 at 00:26 | ||
Regarding Psychedelic and Baroque pop the tags, both tags are not quite suitable for Strawberry Fields Forever. Tomorow Never Knows is the great psych, and we could even describe that one as 'progressive psychedelia' aswell, but it's a 'psychedelic experience', not that haunting, pastoral and moony atmosphere of Strawbery Fields Forever. The Beatles' songs like Yesterday and (or) Eleanor Rigby, simply due to that usage of the strings, were called Baroque pop. By the other bands, as an example of Baroque pop, I'd like to mention Walk Away Renee (1966) by NYC band The Left Banke. So everybody can hear that Baroque pop have nothing to do with Strawberry Fields Forever, i.e. SFF is not something derived from Baroque pop. In lack of the term 'Symphonic rock' that will be coined some years later, Strawberry Fields Forever used to be and still to be wrongly tagged as a "Psych" and "Baroque pop", although both tags never ever work well for Strawberry Fields Forever because Strawberry Fields Forever already was something else, a new subgenre; The Beatles were move ahead. And that's it. Just born English Symphonic rock.
Edited by Svetonio - July 09 2015 at 10:04 |
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Svetonio
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 20 2010 Location: Serbia Status: Offline Points: 10213 |
Posted: July 09 2015 at 00:35 | ||
Edited by Svetonio - July 09 2015 at 00:53 |
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