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Why can't I stand most modern prog?
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^ "The Nile Song". Talk about kick-ass prog! Its one of the few heavy prog songs from that era that never sounds dated to me. 

The Nile Song, 21st century schizoid man and the knife make up the big three of early prog heavy songs(imo). Wink 
I agree but Schizoid Man and Knife, as good as they are, sound very dated to me.


The Knife I agree, but Schizoid still holds it to this day.
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Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Modern prog is as good as the older stuff ... we just won't give it a proper/clean, and above all an HONEST listen!

It is better than the older stuff and there is more variety.

There was a lot of variety ... but you had to look.

In 1071 and 1972, I came across the HARVEST LABEL (old PF's label) and the one thing I found that did it, was one of the albums ... had an inner sleeve that was an advertising for a breakfast cereal (you can see it in the HIPGNOSIS book), and on the side, it had a list of ingredients. And I went after all of them ... and many of them were not only different, but also "progressive" in their own way, and above all ... very different than what you were used to ... from Roy Harper, to Kevin Ayers, to Capability Brown, to Edgar Broughton Band (that still does not get the recognition it deserves for incredible valuable and meaningful lyrics ... progressive doesn't know lyrics from sh*t!), and a few others ... just a couple days ago, I had to re-listen to East of Eden, because they did not click with me early ... how about The Third Ear Band ... 

Again, there is ALWAYS a variety, and it all depends of where you look ... but you will NEVER EVER find any of it, when you are looking for a song that "sounds like" and has the same lineup of instruments and sounds as the top 3 or 4 ... which is what half the "fans" around here (seemingly!) do, in my ears!

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Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

 
...
I believe it's less that the listeners are lazy and more that producers and labels have grown more and more risk averse.
...

How is that different from a commercial approach?

Look at things like so many bands from Europe in that time period, and many of them were not selling big numbers ... did it stop any of them?

Your comments, are not exactly inspiring ... would you be happy with people that are musch richer than you are making the call that you are not good enough to be "shown", because you are poor and deficient ... and will never have dinner, or tea with them?

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

 
...
Take away large scale addiction to trippy drugs and suddenly prog is not so cool anymore and is music that requires a lot of patience to appreciate.

I think that is over rated and something that the media fabricated to make themselves look better and more "with it" ... as opposed to those "anarchists". It had nothing to do with the drugs for the most part, even though many will say this and that about it ... but the fact is, that the music is still there, and many folks stood up with it ... meaning there is more to music than we know ... 

But we are a society that is deadly afraid of the unknown ... and will kill for it!
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Originally posted by Snicolette Snicolette wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

I too don't have an ear for much after the 70's. Most of the modern progressive stuff I'm into is metal.
Probably because prog slowed down to a trickle in the 80s.

I'm of the opinion that the music did not slow down ... what hurt the most, specially in America, was the fact that FM radio went commercial, with corporate folks buying out all the independent stations, and almost all of them at the start (in America!!!) were independent, which helped a lot of this music. 


I agree that this had a lot to do with it, for US audiences...which made the labels stop signing it to sign what was getting airplay and hence, sales.

And worse ... than this ... is when The Rolling Stones and Led Zeppelin got huge contracts of over 100 million US Dollars, and almost every record company IMMEDIATELY cut out 50 bands from their listings ... and it wasn't just rock music ... one of the great suffering groups at the time was folk music, and the more unusual jazz material, but they survived because their roots were stronger and deeper.

Again, the fading of FM radio as the "music" to listen to, to just another top ten listing featuring the  Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin, Who and 7 more bands ... is what it all became ... and today is called "classic rock" ... just the worst and crassiest comment about that music.
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^ pffft...meaningful lyrics? Mosh...I fookin hate w**kers who suggest that x (usually a blues or country singer) has wonderfully insightful or profound lyrical content...literary snobbism of the highest order.....Anti nowhere league had it right with their classical punk anthem...so what...
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Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

that's not a moral judgement Ian.. just an intellectual one.  Rightly or wrongly.. it changed the way music is made and the prog revival.. the 2nd golden age of prog during the 'oughts' was in large part due to it.  Bands were freed from the majors.. and went directly to the audiences...

It might have started before that, and one can not forget that MARILLION was stone broke, and went after their fans, who all (afaik) got a nice gift for it later ... and guess what ... the truth was out ... you don't need a record company at all ... and you could just about at the same time, do the same thing with Steven Wilson and what became Porcupine Tree, and it helped the music they made ... the record company was not going to say anything about the music they made ... period!
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Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

^ pffft...meaningful lyrics? Mosh...I fookin hate w**kers who suggest that x (usually a blues or country singer) has wonderfully insightful or profound lyrical content...literary snobbism of the highest order.....Anti nowhere league had it right with their classical punk anthem...so what...

Funny you state that ... the best lyricist I have ever heard in my life had told the music business to take a flying leap into the smog, or the dirty ocean ... he was a technician at the Public Station in LA (the famous one) and played guitar and did his own songs, and not only was he black, he had the smoothest voice ever, and his lyrics were so with it ... and almost no one ever heard of him.

Look up, if you can find it Mississippi Charles Bevel and one of his friends that is still going ... Chic Streetman!

It has nothing to do with "literature" ... and your comment, sadly enough, is more of a snobbish comment than you can imagine.

Literature, btw, is known to be very snobbish ... but is that like saying that ALL OF IT is snobbish?

C'mon man ... you know stuff way better than that and your comment is almost a troll on my post and I'm not sure its contents have much value or understanding to add to my comment. Ohhh ... I forget ... Mick's lyrics are all literature ... now I get it!
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Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ Probably because New Prog is just new prog, not an actual style of music.   Nu-prog, however, is a gremlin waiting to leap into the cogs.

In the UK lazy journalists attempted to coin the term New Prog for bands like Radiohead and Muse; on your side of the pond equally lazy journalists tried to coin it for System of a Down and Dillinger Escape Plan, fortunately it didn't catch on.

There was an American politician that LOUDLY stated something like ... "let them get stoned ... and I will win all the elections!" ... and that is exactly what has happened in the USA ... no one knows or understands the difference and just want their new smoke stick ... to puff on ... it's the new meaning of "freedom", you know!
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Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^ "The Nile Song". Talk about kick-ass prog! Its one of the few heavy prog songs from that era that never sounds dated to me. 

The Nile Song, 21st century schizoid man and the knife make up the big three of early prog heavy songs(imo). Wink 
I agree but Schizoid Man and Knife, as good as they are, sound very dated to me.


The Knife I agree, but Schizoid still holds it to this day.
Really? Cheesy treated vocals, stereotypical social commentary and a poorly produced recording on top? You can like it all you want, but Schizoid Man has aged the worst. 

(I'll let you in on something. I've been listening to ItCotKC non stop since 1969. It's actually ok to enjoy music that sounds dated. Just don't let your friends and neighbors know, or they'll run you out of town on a rail.)


Edited by SteveG - November 25 2019 at 15:20
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The knife sounds dated because of what the woman screaming in it? The Black Sabbath guitars? I guess I don't understand why people think it's dated and not the nile song. 
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:


And worse ... than this ... is when The Rolling Stones and Led Zeppelin got huge contracts of over 100 million US Dollars, and almost every record company IMMEDIATELY cut out 50 bands from their listings ... and it wasn't just rock music ... one of the great suffering groups at the time was folk music, and the more unusual jazz material, but they survived because their roots were stronger and deeper.

Again, the fading of FM radio as the "music" to listen to, to just another top ten listing featuring the  Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin, Who and 7 more bands ... is what it all became ... and today is called "classic rock" ... just the worst and crassiest comment about that music.
Every time you tell this fictional story it's different, getting progressively worse and more outrageous with each iteration to the point where your hyperbole is now so steep we'll have to invent new superlatives to describe its trajectory. I mean seriously Pedro, the absolute bollocks you spout on Progressive Rock takes some beating but with this fairy story you've surpassed yourself.

So, for the benefit of those in the cheap seats who may be hearing this for the first time (and let's be brutally blunt here, you're not going listen to a sodding word I say no matter how many times I have to correct your bullsnot). This isn't how record companies worked, it never happened in the real world (despite it happening over and over again on Planet Pedro Mosquito, which as we all know is somewhere in the vast cavern of your head, just left of Mars) and is completely arsebackwards. Firstly none of those bands ever got huge contracts of 100 million dollars, US or otherwise - that is so ludicrously preposterous it's an insult to anyone's intelligence (except yours) and secondly no bands ever got cut from a label's roster as the result of the record company signing a (potentially) bigger artist because that's not how record labels worked. Signing a big artist actually means the label has cash to invest in riskier projects.

One Rolling Stones hit meant that Decca/London could invest in dozens of progressive artists on their Deram imprint label like The Move, Procol Harum, The Moody Blues and Giles, Giles & Fripp. Similarly every Beatles hit funded all those progressive artist's on EMI's Harvest imprint label that you love to bore everyone with (yes we know Edgar Broughton Band are great and all, but even they would admit they weren't Prog) and Atlantic signing Led Zeppelin allowed them to take a gamble on bringing Yes and Genesis to American audiences. Even a Prog label like Virgin used the profits from their unexpected hit album Tubular Bells to finance Gong, Tangerine Dream and Faust. Every hit artists funds the recordings of all those lesser-known acts whose albums don't sell in vast numbers so without Led Zepp, The Stones and all the other Classic Rock acts all those "none-of-the-hits" artists that cause you to cream your strides would never be heard. Stern Smile [oh boy have I missed that stern smiley]


Edited by Dean - November 26 2019 at 04:08
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Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

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Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:


And worse ... than this ... is when The Rolling Stones and Led Zeppelin got huge contracts of over 100 million US Dollars, and almost every record company IMMEDIATELY cut out 50 bands from their listings ... and it wasn't just rock music ... one of the great suffering groups at the time was folk music, and the more unusual jazz material, but they survived because their roots were stronger and deeper.

Again, the fading of FM radio as the "music" to listen to, to just another top ten listing featuring the  Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin, Who and 7 more bands ... is what it all became ... and today is called "classic rock" ... just the worst and crassiest comment about that music.

Every time you tell this fictional story it's different, getting progressively worse and more outrageous with each iteration to the point where your hyperbole is now so steep we'll have to invent new superlatives to describe its trajectory. I mean seriously Pedro, the absolute bollocks you spout on Progressive Rock takes some beating but with this fairy story you've surpassed yourself.

So, for the benefit of those in the cheap seats who may be hearing this for the first time (and let's be brutally blunt here, you're not going listen to a sodding word I say no matter how many times I have to correct your bullsnot). This isn't how record companies worked, it never happened in the real world (despite it happening over and over again on Planet Pedro Mosquito, which as we all know is somewhere in the vast cavern of your head, just left of Mars) and is completely arsebackwards. Firstly none of those bands ever got huge contracts of 100 million dollars, US or otherwise - that is so ludicrously preposterous it's an insult to anyone's intelligence (except yours) and secondly no bands ever got cut from a label's roster as the result of the record company signing a (potentially) bigger artist because that's not how record labels worked. Signing a big artist actually means the label has cash to invest in riskier projects.

One Rolling Stones hit meant that Decca/London could invest in dozens of progressive artists on their Deram imprint label like The Move, Procol Harum, The Moody Blues and Giles, Giles & Fripp. Similarly every Beatles hit funded all those progressive artist's on EMI's Harvest imprint label that you love to bore everyone with (yes we know Edgar Broughton Band are great and all, but even they would admit they weren't Prog) and Atlantic signing Led Zeppelin allowed them to take a gamble on bringing Yes and Genesis to American audiences. Even a Prog label like Virgin used the profits from their unexpected hit album Tubular Bells to finance Gong, Tangerine Dream and Faust. Every hit artists funds the recordings of all those lesser-known acts whose albums don't sell in vast numbers so without Led Zepp, The Stones and all the other Classic Rock acts all those "none-of-the-hits" artists that cause you to cream your strides would never be heard. Stern Smile [oh boy have I missed that stern smiley]




Firstly well done, on being able to interpret Moshkito's posts, although I guess this one was relatively straight forward. I'm not fluent in Pedro, and even I got the grasp of this one. The fluency level required here probably equates to buying a drink and asking where the toilets are in German, and I can cope with that.

Secondly, what you say makes perfect sense regarding how labels operated. It stands to reason; the more money they had, the more they would invest in more 'left field' acts. It was a different time, of course, but they knew many of these acts would be reasonably profitable anyway in time, even if they weren't in the big league.
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Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:


And worse ... than this ... is when The Rolling Stones and Led Zeppelin got huge contracts of over 100 million US Dollars, and almost every record company IMMEDIATELY cut out 50 bands from their listings ... and it wasn't just rock music ... one of the great suffering groups at the time was folk music, and the more unusual jazz material, but they survived because their roots were stronger and deeper.

Again, the fading of FM radio as the "music" to listen to, to just another top ten listing featuring the  Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin, Who and 7 more bands ... is what it all became ... and today is called "classic rock" ... just the worst and crassiest comment about that music.

Every time you tell this fictional story it's different, getting progressively worse and more outrageous with each iteration to the point where your hyperbole is now so steep we'll have to invent new superlatives to describe its trajectory. I mean seriously Pedro, the absolute bollocks you spout on Progressive Rock takes some beating but with this fairy story you've surpassed yourself.

So, for the benefit of those in the cheap seats who may be hearing this for the first time (and let's be brutally blunt here, you're not going listen to a sodding word I say no matter how many times I have to correct your bullsnot). This isn't how record companies worked, it never happened in the real world (despite it happening over and over again on Planet Pedro Mosquito, which as we all know is somewhere in the vast cavern of your head, just left of Mars) and is completely arsebackwards. Firstly none of those bands ever got huge contracts of 100 million dollars, US or otherwise - that is so ludicrously preposterous it's an insult to anyone's intelligence (except yours) and secondly no bands ever got cut from a label's roster as the result of the record company signing a (potentially) bigger artist because that's not how record labels worked. Signing a big artist actually means the label has cash to invest in riskier projects.

One Rolling Stones hit meant that Decca/London could invest in dozens of progressive artists on their Deram imprint label like The Move, Procol Harum, The Moody Blues and Giles, Giles & Fripp. Similarly every Beatles hit funded all those progressive artist's on EMI's Harvest imprint label that you love to bore everyone with (yes we know Edgar Broughton Band are great and all, but even they would admit they weren't Prog) and Atlantic signing Led Zeppelin allowed them to take a gamble on bringing Yes and Genesis to American audiences. Even a Prog label like Virgin used the profits from their unexpected hit album Tubular Bells to finance Gong, Tangerine Dream and Faust. Every hit artists funds the recordings of all those lesser-known acts whose albums don't sell in vast numbers so without Led Zepp, The Stones and all the other Classic Rock acts all those "none-of-the-hits" artists that cause you to cream your strides would never be heard. Stern Smile [oh boy have I missed that stern smiley]




A fundamental truth about the music INDUSTRY that people resist accepting for whatever reason. Even today, the problem is less that somebody like Justin Bieber is so popular but that the major labels, battered by downloading and streaming, spread themselves thin.
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

The knife sounds dated because of what the woman screaming in it? The Black Sabbath guitars? I guess I don't understand why people think it's dated and not the nile song. 
Yes, that's it exactly! I can't think of musical motifs that scream out the 70s more than a woman screaming and Black Sabbath guitars.
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Hi,

No sense arguing with Mr. Scrooge.

The music business, as he says, had one or two large this or that which helped some bands, and all that ... but it did not excuse the many European bands that were dumped ... and their tours cut off ... and the money that would have helped a couple of them ... gone ... it went to a 20 ft dick on the stage instead!

The notion that one big hit, would "support" a few new things is an illusion, according to one very well known comedy group that was near and dear to us in Santa Barbara ... and there were people around them already telling them in 1974 and 1975 ... from the way I heard it ... that they needed to dump Columbia and go off on their own ... which apparently they were afraid to do and did not go independent ... and of course, all the benefits of that "money" disappeared ... the released of new albums got no push whatsoever, and while they lasted very well and still sell very well today ... the mark of the hard work and attempts to make it in a record company that was not interested ... their money was somewhere else ... and the "selection" of who got the help ... slowly died.

This was the problem with the new music, and "progressive" when (supposedly) the sales dropped ... and yes the balloon guy used the sales from Mike's album to fund TD, GONG and maybe one or two others ... and guess what ... Daevid Allen went to his grave not having gotten a single cent from it, and the lawsuit was still on, then. And even Gilly, quietly said that Virgin was fun for an hour, but a disaster otherwise, since it got everyone excited ... BY NOTHING!

I have no quarry with Uncle Scrooge's ideas (and very obvious support!!!) for the "model" for the record companies, and if Dave Cousins is right, in his book, Uncle Scrooge is not exactly correct either, and his notions are romantic at best.

I do not fault Led Zipp, or Rolling Stink, as not deserving of their checks and such ... but I do in that number and amount of bands they (supposedly) helped ... is not exactly the great news of music, either! Ohh, sure RS would have some band open their show ... and get boo'ed off the stage! Led Zink I am not sure about ... but you only see Jimmy in Roy Harper albums ... not in a whole lot of other bands!

The fact is ... that FM radio that was "independent", was totally bought out ... in SB the main station was sold for a hefty price to ... the underwriter of it, to my knowledge, was TEXACO ... and there was a reason why that comedy group used ... the sign of the double XX ... for the name of that one oil company! 

Your understanding of how things worked, is also grossly faulty ... and unrealistic ... and romantic at best ... I, at least, am standing up for the bands and the music ... you are standing up for the "business model" that supposedly helped others, but only made money for a few folks ... not anyone else, since almost no bands "improved" at that time from where they started and came from ... and eventually were considered "dead prog" ... the most idiotic notion of all here ... music and the arts never die!
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:


How is that different from a commercial approach?

Look at things like so many bands from Europe in that time period, and many of them were not selling big numbers ... did it stop any of them?

Your comments, are not exactly inspiring ... would you be happy with people that are musch richer than you are making the call that you are not good enough to be "shown", because you are poor and deficient ... and will never have dinner, or tea with them?

Mosh, I don't know how much experience you have in the third world (I have a LOT, living in a third world nation) but it's absolutely a fact that they can take a look at you and decide you are not worthy of being shown the wares of a luxury items showroom or that you cannot be allowed to walk into a posh hotel.  So on and so forth.  When that is the hard reality of life, whether that makes you 'happy' or not becomes immaterial.  I don't have a romantic view of life and especially not of music, living as I do in a time when so many meaningful avenues to make a living have been taken away from musicians, so I call it as I see it.  If that is not inspiring, I can't help it.  Yes, I do believe from my experience that most people are perfectly happy to listen to whatever is up on the tele or on radio.  Why?  Because they simply don't CARE as much about music as you seem to want them to.  For most people, music is a social activity and one that provides them leisure and nothing more.  I am not judging them for it; this is all they seek to derive from music.  So they don't find it hard to like the stuff that's promoted endlessly for their consumption by the industry.  It is therefore entirely incumbent on the industry to push good artists.  They once did and they didn't sink.  They don't anymore, partly because of the above mentioned unfavourable business environment and partly because today's technology allows them to target and sell music tailored precisely to their target audience.  Which means you and I aren't their target audience, simple.  

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:


I think that is over rated and something that the media fabricated to make themselves look better and more "with it" ... as opposed to those "anarchists". It had nothing to do with the drugs for the most part, even though many will say this and that about it ... but the fact is, that the music is still there, and many folks stood up with it ... meaning there is more to music than we know ... 

But we are a society that is deadly afraid of the unknown ... and will kill for it!

I don't know about the media but I have heard this from several progheads who followed prog back in the day, including some who participate regularly here.  I don't mean that that is the ONLY way to get into prog.  While I am now able to drink a little bit of rum or whisky when in the midst of friends or colleagues or clients who drink, I was a rank teetotaller when I got into prog (or metal for that matter).  So I don't doubt it is POSSIBLE.  But possible does not by itself equal critical mass. I can believe that the drugs would help the mind to stop questioning why prog has all these weird structures and just bask in the mood.  It is almost the only mass music movement I can think of in the last 50-60 years where the listeners didn't dance, headbang or otherwise move their body to the music.  And it is quite likely that that is so because many of them happened to be stoned.  

While I do respect immensely the smaller prog rock bands from Europe who got by without the support afforded to the big British names, it is unlikely that we would all be gathered here today on this multicultural prog forum if the British bands hadn't blown up prog into a PHENOMENON rather than a small and respectable music movement in Europe.  It is also unlikely that prog would have then attracted labels like pretentious or pompous because nobody would have cared, nobody would have felt threatened enough by its success to want to somehow taint it and shut it down.  

Notice that writing on prog is a lot more sympathetic today.  That's largely because nobody except those who STILL listen to prog cares anymore.  And that is how prog would have been like in the 70s had it not become big.  And there is nothing wrong with that.  I am only accounting for its success.  

Another clue: notice that when Marianne Williamson said the only thing that can trump hate is love, social media went all snarky ROFL-copter on her (they later warmed up to her AFTER she appeared to have 'owned' their favourite punching bag Dave Rubin).  Does that not show you how radically different the environment today is from the 60s and the 70s?  Do you not think, as a corollary to the above, that John Lennon would either be laughed off or regarded as a dangerous radical if he penned the lyrics of Imagine today?

There was a large scale social disruption in the 60s, of the sort that only occasionally comes along in the history of our civilisation.  It lingered on for a while in the 70s, probably the first half (when prog continued to thrive as well, sort of carrying the baton for the by then defunct hippie movement).  So there was a special kind of receptiveness and open-mindedness towards experimentation in the air then.  It takes that kind of environment for something like prog to flower.  I can imagine one or two artists randomly coming along and refusing to obey the status quo.  That happens all the time.  But for an entire movement to spring up like that, no, that requires a special set of circumstances. 


Edited by rogerthat - November 26 2019 at 08:57
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Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

In the old days you had prog, you had rock and you had hard rock, metal etc and usually one genre didn't have much to do with the other(with a few exceptions). These days it seems like everything has been put in a blender. That can be either good or bad depending on your perspective.

I don't know that I agree. Tull had enough hard rock to be considered hard rock. Jan Akkerman was one of the earliest shredding virtuosos. Hawkwind had pretty heavy thrash rock and spawned Lemmy who influenced Ozzy and others. Zappa had some pretty heavy blues and sometimes metal when he wanted it I don't see some of the distinctions you're portraying. Eloy had quite a bit of grit in their first few albums. Jade Warrior too. Although, if one leans toward keyboard heavy Prog, I can see how someone would get that notion, but I think it's all illusion. Guitar heavy Prog was plenty kickass.



Those bands were from a time when heavy metal hadn't 'decoupled' from rock but was a subset of it.  Judas Priest was the first all out metal band starting with Sad Wings of Destiny and abandoned their rock roots more and more as they grew.  Then Iron Maiden came along and Black Sabbath too went 'Judas metal' if you can call it that on Heaven and Hell and from that point, rock and metal no longer intersected.  The prog that came about in the 80s and the 90s continued to be separate from metal (this is why bands like Dream Theater were specifically called prog METAL and not prog ROCK).  By the noughties, rock had reached a dead end, regurgitating the leftovers of grunge and Britpop so prog began to incorporate elements of metal which continued to thrive underground.  Likewise, metal began to drop its snobbish old-school 'true' stance in the 2010s and began to appropriate elements of prog.  As in, a pure prog sound and not just juxtaposing odd time sigs on metal riffs.
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