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Ambient Hurricanes 
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 Posted: January 03 2013 at 10:51 |
No, it is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which John attributes to Jesus in this passage, that is "the finest baptism." See this passage in Acts, where John's and Jesus' baptisms are differentiated:
 Acts 19:1-7 wrote:
And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inlanda]">[a] country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. 2 And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John's baptism.” 4 And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized inb]">[b] the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying. 7 There were about twelve men in all. |
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I love dogs, I've always loved dogs
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timothy leary
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Posted: January 03 2013 at 10:58 |
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Was I not talking about the baptism of the spirit?
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Ambient Hurricanes
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Posted: January 03 2013 at 13:08 |
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^No, the verse you quoted said: 'On whomever you see the Spirit coming down and remaining upon, this is the one who will baptize in the Holy Spirit.'
John did not baptize in the Holy Spirit. The Spirit coming upon Jesus was a special sign from God, to show that Jesus was His Son.
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I love dogs, I've always loved dogs
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timothy leary
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Joined: December 29 2005
Location: Lilliwaup, Wa.
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Points: 5319
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Posted: January 03 2013 at 13:24 |
this is the one who will baptize in the Holy Spirit.'
I never said John would baptize in the Holy spirit. (this is the one)meaning Jesus....who will baptize in the Holy Spirit. Since we were talking of the thief on the cross John would not be in the picture since he was already deceased.
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Ambient Hurricanes
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Joined: December 25 2011
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Points: 2549
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Posted: January 03 2013 at 16:11 |
^Jesus did not baptize anyone.
John 4:1-3 wrote:
Now when Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John 2 (although Jesus himself did not baptize, but only his disciples), 3 he left Judea and departed again for Galilee |
I don't think that the disciples were baptizing in the Holy Spirit; I'm under the impression that this first happened at Pentecost. If anyone knows otherwise, feel free to correct me.
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I love dogs, I've always loved dogs
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timothy leary
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 29 2005
Location: Lilliwaup, Wa.
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Points: 5319
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Posted: January 03 2013 at 17:16 |
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Where did i say disciples? I think it must remain unanswerable whether the thief on the cross was baptized. Certainly I would not put any faith in you and epignosis inference which says he was not baptized. As for whether he was covered under the old covenant or the new we can never really know either because the Bible does not tell us who died first, jesus or the thief. I am not trying to correct you. I stand by the fact that inferences are not biblical truth. Including any I might make.
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Ambient Hurricanes
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Joined: December 25 2011
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Points: 2549
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Posted: January 25 2013 at 12:20 |
From the Libertarian Thread:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
dtguitarfan wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
dtguitarfan wrote:
"Give to Caesar what is Caesar's..." |
You
realize how you're taking that completely out of context? |
So you're saying Jesus DOESN'T want me to pay my taxes? |
I'm saying that I don't think Jesus was talking about paying taxes at all.
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How do you justify that interpretation? The text says:
Matthew 22:15-22 wrote:
Then the Pharisees went and plotted how to entangle him in his words. 16 And they sent their disciples to him, along with the Herodians, saying, “Teacher, we know that you are true and teach the way of God truthfully, and you do not care about anyone's opinion, for you are not swayed by appearances.b]">[b] 17 Tell us, then, what you think. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?” 18 But Jesus, aware of their malice, said, “Why put me to the test, you hypocrites? 19 Show me the coin for the tax.” And they brought him a denarius.c]">[c] 20 And Jesus said to them, “Whose likeness and inscription is this?” 21 They said, “Caesar's.” Then he said to them, “Therefore render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.” 22 When they heard it, they marveled. And they left him and went away. |
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I love dogs, I've always loved dogs
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Equality 7-2521
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Joined: August 11 2005
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Points: 15783
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Posted: January 25 2013 at 12:38 |
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Where does he mention paying taxes? Remember a few things at the time,
(1) There was not a uniform currency being used at the time in the region. (evident from other passages if you want to keep biblical. There are money changers outside the temple before Jesus goes Rambo on them I believe)
(2) The denarius is a particular currency which was quite literally property of Caesar and issued to soldiers and high officials.
(3) The Romans were an occupying force.
(4) The Caesars viewed themselves as gods and had their images emblazoned on the denarius.
When asked the question, Jesus is in a place where answering either in the affirmative or negative will have pulled him into a trap. He responds with a very poignant question to ascertain exactly which form of currency. After being shown the currency, with the image of the caesar, a image that Jesus would know and above which caesar would be written, he proceeds to ask the obvious question as to the image. His final advice chastises caesar and those who would give faith to an authority other than God.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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timothy leary
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 29 2005
Location: Lilliwaup, Wa.
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Points: 5319
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Posted: January 25 2013 at 13:15 |
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The Tyrian double shekel was used to pay the temple tax. This coin had the head of Hercules on it - a false god as far as Jesus was concerned, and perhaps one reason he flew into a rage that traffic in these coins was going on in the holiest of Jewish places. This outburst also perhaps sealed his fate with the Sanhedrin, as he was threatening their financial support system.
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dtguitarfan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 24 2011
Location: Chattanooga, TN
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Points: 1708
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Posted: January 25 2013 at 13:36 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Where does he mention paying taxes? Remember a few things at the time,
(1) There was not a uniform currency being used at the time in the region. (evident from other passages if you want to keep biblical. There are money changers outside the temple before Jesus goes Rambo on them I believe)
(2) The denarius is a particular currency which was quite literally property of Caesar and issued to soldiers and high officials.
(3) The Romans were an occupying force.
(4) The Caesars viewed themselves as gods and had their images emblazoned on the denarius.
When asked the question, Jesus is in a place where answering either in the affirmative or negative will have pulled him into a trap. He responds with a very poignant question to ascertain exactly which form of currency. After being shown the currency, with the image of the caesar, a image that Jesus would know and above which caesar would be written, he proceeds to ask the obvious question as to the image. His final advice chastises caesar and those who would give faith to an authority other than God.
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Actually, you do make a good point about Caesar's face being on the coin, and the fact that Jesus' doesn't pull one of these coins out of his own pocket is a subtle detail Christians often miss. However, let's look at another passage and interpret scripture with scripture:
Romans 13:1-7
Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God. So anyone who rebels against authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and they will be punished. For the authorities do not strike fear in people who are doing right, but in those who are doing wrong. Would you like to live without fear of the authorities? Do what is right, and they will honor you. The authorities are God’s servants, sent for your good. But if you are doing wrong, of course you should be afraid, for they have the power to punish you. They are God’s servants, sent for the very purpose of punishing those who do what is wrong. So you must submit to them, not only to avoid punishment, but also to keep a clear conscience.
Pay your taxes, too, for these same reasons. For government workers need to be paid. They are serving God in what they do. Give to everyone what you owe them: Pay your taxes and government fees to those who collect them, and give respect and honor to those who are in authority.
Also, remember that the writer of these verses, Paul, was later on executed by the Roman government. He didn't obey laws that went against his religious views, but believed in paying taxes....
Edited by dtguitarfan - January 25 2013 at 13:42
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32491
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Posted: January 25 2013 at 14:11 |
dtguitarfan wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Where does he mention paying taxes? Remember a few things at the time,
(1) There was not a uniform currency being used at the time in the region. (evident from other passages if you want to keep biblical. There are money changers outside the temple before Jesus goes Rambo on them I believe)
(2) The denarius is a particular currency which was quite literally property of Caesar and issued to soldiers and high officials.
(3) The Romans were an occupying force.
(4) The Caesars viewed themselves as gods and had their images emblazoned on the denarius.
When asked the question, Jesus is in a place where answering either in the affirmative or negative will have pulled him into a trap. He responds with a very poignant question to ascertain exactly which form of currency. After being shown the currency, with the image of the caesar, a image that Jesus would know and above which caesar would be written, he proceeds to ask the obvious question as to the image. His final advice chastises caesar and those who would give faith to an authority other than God.
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Actually, you do make a good point about Caesar's face being on the coin, and the fact that Jesus' doesn't pull one of these coins out of his own pocket is a subtle detail Christians often miss. However, let's look at another passage and interpret scripture with scripture:
Romans 13:1-7
Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God. So anyone who rebels against authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and they will be punished. For the authorities do not strike fear in people who are doing right, but in those who are doing wrong. Would you like to live without fear of the authorities? Do what is right, and they will honor you. The authorities are God’s servants, sent for your good. But if you are doing wrong, of course you should be afraid, for they have the power to punish you. They are God’s servants, sent for the very purpose of punishing those who do what is wrong. So you must submit to them, not only to avoid punishment, but also to keep a clear conscience.
Pay your taxes, too, for these same reasons. For government workers need to be paid. They are serving God in what they do. Give to everyone what you owe them: Pay your taxes and government fees to those who collect them, and give respect and honor to those who are in authority.
Also, remember that the writer of these verses, Paul, was later on executed by the Roman government. He didn't obey laws that went against his religious views, but believed in paying taxes.... |
Who among us is advocating rebellion against the government or advising people to not pay their taxes?
We libertarians advocate a change in the law, not a breaking of the law, so I'm not sure how Romans 13 is relevant. Who is the ultimate authority in America? Is it not "We the People?"
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timothy leary
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 29 2005
Location: Lilliwaup, Wa.
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Points: 5319
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Posted: January 25 2013 at 14:44 |
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no, the ultimate authority is God
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dtguitarfan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 24 2011
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Status: Offline
Points: 1708
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Posted: January 25 2013 at 15:15 |
Epignosis wrote:
dtguitarfan wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Where does he mention paying taxes? Remember a few things at the time,
(1) There was not a uniform currency being used at the time in the region. (evident from other passages if you want to keep biblical. There are money changers outside the temple before Jesus goes Rambo on them I believe)
(2) The denarius is a particular currency which was quite literally property of Caesar and issued to soldiers and high officials.
(3) The Romans were an occupying force.
(4) The Caesars viewed themselves as gods and had their images emblazoned on the denarius.
When asked the question, Jesus is in a place where answering either in the affirmative or negative will have pulled him into a trap. He responds with a very poignant question to ascertain exactly which form of currency. After being shown the currency, with the image of the caesar, a image that Jesus would know and above which caesar would be written, he proceeds to ask the obvious question as to the image. His final advice chastises caesar and those who would give faith to an authority other than God.
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Actually, you do make a good point about Caesar's face being on the coin, and the fact that Jesus' doesn't pull one of these coins out of his own pocket is a subtle detail Christians often miss. However, let's look at another passage and interpret scripture with scripture:
Romans 13:1-7
Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God. So anyone who rebels against authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and they will be punished. For the authorities do not strike fear in people who are doing right, but in those who are doing wrong. Would you like to live without fear of the authorities? Do what is right, and they will honor you. The authorities are God’s servants, sent for your good. But if you are doing wrong, of course you should be afraid, for they have the power to punish you. They are God’s servants, sent for the very purpose of punishing those who do what is wrong. So you must submit to them, not only to avoid punishment, but also to keep a clear conscience.
Pay your taxes, too, for these same reasons. For government workers need to be paid. They are serving God in what they do. Give to everyone what you owe them: Pay your taxes and government fees to those who collect them, and give respect and honor to those who are in authority.
Also, remember that the writer of these verses, Paul, was later on executed by the Roman government. He didn't obey laws that went against his religious views, but believed in paying taxes.... |
Who among us is advocating rebellion against the government or advising people to not pay their taxes?
We libertarians advocate a change in the law, not a breaking of the law, so I'm not sure how Romans 13 is relevant. Who is the ultimate authority in America? Is it not "We the People?"
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Sure, but you yourself are always railing against how unjust taxes are. You have to see how this whole conversation started, here: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85372&PN=114When I pressed for an answer on the question of "at what point does their right to tax us become "taking our stuff" and who gets to decide where that point is?" I was basically given the answer that all taxes are unjust, period.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32491
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Posted: January 25 2013 at 15:36 |
dtguitarfan wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
dtguitarfan wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Where does he mention paying taxes? Remember a few things at the time,
(1) There was not a uniform currency being used at the time in the region. (evident from other passages if you want to keep biblical. There are money changers outside the temple before Jesus goes Rambo on them I believe)
(2) The denarius is a particular currency which was quite literally property of Caesar and issued to soldiers and high officials.
(3) The Romans were an occupying force.
(4) The Caesars viewed themselves as gods and had their images emblazoned on the denarius.
When asked the question, Jesus is in a place where answering either in the affirmative or negative will have pulled him into a trap. He responds with a very poignant question to ascertain exactly which form of currency. After being shown the currency, with the image of the caesar, a image that Jesus would know and above which caesar would be written, he proceeds to ask the obvious question as to the image. His final advice chastises caesar and those who would give faith to an authority other than God.
|
Actually, you do make a good point about Caesar's face being on the coin, and the fact that Jesus' doesn't pull one of these coins out of his own pocket is a subtle detail Christians often miss. However, let's look at another passage and interpret scripture with scripture:
Romans 13:1-7
Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God. So anyone who rebels against authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and they will be punished. For the authorities do not strike fear in people who are doing right, but in those who are doing wrong. Would you like to live without fear of the authorities? Do what is right, and they will honor you. The authorities are God’s servants, sent for your good. But if you are doing wrong, of course you should be afraid, for they have the power to punish you. They are God’s servants, sent for the very purpose of punishing those who do what is wrong. So you must submit to them, not only to avoid punishment, but also to keep a clear conscience.
Pay your taxes, too, for these same reasons. For government workers need to be paid. They are serving God in what they do. Give to everyone what you owe them: Pay your taxes and government fees to those who collect them, and give respect and honor to those who are in authority.
Also, remember that the writer of these verses, Paul, was later on executed by the Roman government. He didn't obey laws that went against his religious views, but believed in paying taxes.... |
Who among us is advocating rebellion against the government or advising people to not pay their taxes?
We libertarians advocate a change in the law, not a breaking of the law, so I'm not sure how Romans 13 is relevant. Who is the ultimate authority in America? Is it not "We the People?"
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Sure, but you yourself are always railing against how unjust taxes are. You have to see how this whole conversation started, here:
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85372&PN=114
When I pressed for an answer on the question of "at what point does their right to tax us become "taking our stuff" and who gets to decide where that point is?" I was basically given the answer that all taxes are unjust, period.
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Our income tax is only 100 years old. That means we've done other things before that. And before that, what did the settlers do? We are suggesting that there are other ways to run a government than through coercion and taxation.
In Romans, Paul was speaking primarily to gentiles who didn't want the Roman Jews back after they'd been temporarily sent packing. Paul's purpose, I think, was not just randomly saying, "Oh hey, guys, btw, everybody's gotta obey the law, k?" It wasn't some kind of afterthought. I believe Paul was reminding the Jewish Christians in Rome that, rather than be bitter toward Nero, they change their focus from civil distaste and set an example. If they could not show themselves to be trustworthy people in Rome, then how could the Roman citizenry- who respected their establishments- trust their Christian testimony?
Edited by Epignosis - January 25 2013 at 15:37
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timothy leary
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 29 2005
Location: Lilliwaup, Wa.
Status: Offline
Points: 5319
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Posted: January 25 2013 at 16:06 |
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It is plain to see in the intro to the book of Romans, Paul says every soul.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
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Posted: January 25 2013 at 17:24 |
timothy leary wrote:
It is plain to see in the intro to the book of Romans, Paul says every soul. |
Just like when I'm in my English class as a teacher, I say "Everyone must submit an 8-10 page research paper," I mean you and everyone else on the planet have to do it too.
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dtguitarfan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 24 2011
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Status: Offline
Points: 1708
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Posted: January 25 2013 at 17:41 |
Epignosis wrote:
timothy leary wrote:
<font size="3" face="Arial, Helvetica, Swiss, Geneva, sans-serif"><span style="line-height: 32px;">It is plain to see in the intro to the book of Romans, Paul says every soul.</span> |
Just like when I'm in my English class as a teacher, I say "Everyone must submit an 8-10 page research paper," I mean you and everyone else on the planet have to do it too. |
You first.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32491
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Posted: January 25 2013 at 17:59 |
dtguitarfan wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
timothy leary wrote:
<font size="3" face="Arial, Helvetica, Swiss, Geneva, sans-serif"><span style="line-height: 32px;">It is plain to see in the intro to the book of Romans, Paul says every soul.</span> |
Just like when I'm in my English class as a teacher, I say "Everyone must submit an 8-10 page research paper," I mean you and everyone else on the planet have to do it too. |
You first. |
I don't understand your comment.
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timothy leary
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 29 2005
Location: Lilliwaup, Wa.
Status: Offline
Points: 5319
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Posted: January 25 2013 at 18:43 |
Epignosis wrote:
timothy leary wrote:
It is plain to see in the intro to the book of Romans, Paul says every soul. |
Just like when I'm in my English class as a teacher, I say "Everyone must submit an 8-10 page research paper," I mean you and everyone else on the planet have to do it too.
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So in other words the book of romans is just for romans and Paul is just like you in your class, baloney
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
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Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32491
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Posted: January 25 2013 at 21:12 |
timothy leary wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
timothy leary wrote:
It is plain to see in the intro to the book of Romans, Paul says every soul. |
Just like when I'm in my English class as a teacher, I say "Everyone must submit an 8-10 page research paper," I mean you and everyone else on the planet have to do it too.
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So in other words the book of romans is just for romans and Paul is just like you in your class, baloney |
I am saying the term "everyone" should be limited to context, as in the following:
"Everyone must fasten their seat belts!"
I'm not on the plane, so there is no seat belt for me to fasten.
As for the book of Romans, it's an epistle. That means it is a letter meant for a specific people and not necessarily meant for everyone.
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